by Vyckie Bennett (Garrison)
This is a letter to those godly, dedicated Christians who know me (or know of me) from my articles and testimonies which have appeared in popular homeschool publications such as Above Rubies, An Encouraging Word, SALT, Unless the Lord, etc. ~ or who have followed news of our ever-growing family in my monthly column or in updates and prayer requests which I have posted on email groups such as MOMYS Digest, The Lord’s Heritage, FARBITM, and others. I have been an advocate of godly womanhood ~ I’ve encouraged fellow Christian moms in their Quiverfull convictions and have done my best to lead by example in my own family.
This is a difficult letter for me to write ~ mainly because I was so convinced of, and committed to, the Biblical family ideals espoused by what has been termed the “Quiverfull” or “Biblical Patriarchy” movement. I was entirely sincere ~ and I never hesitated to do whatever I believed the Lord was asking of me, no matter the cost to my own personal comfort or convenience.
There is a great deal of heartache and drama in the story of how I came to disavow that whole lifestyle along with the Christian religion and the Bible upon which those family principles are based ~ which could make for some interesting reading if I ever actually get around to writing a book ~ but I guess what it really comes down to is this:
My children were not thriving in the isolated and controlling environment which had developed in our home as a result of following the patriarchal family structure.
I have never been much of a pragmatist ~ preferring to ground my thoughts, beliefs and actions on revealed Truth rather than following the inherently subjective standard of “whatever works.” But when my oldest daughter, Angel tried to kill herself ~ I could not help but think, “I could have kids in the psych ward for a lot less effort.”
I had knocked myself out for my Lord ~ following His will for my life and my family though it nearly killed me on several occasions. I had done everything according to the “Old Paths” and the “narrow way” ~ welcoming children from the Lord even though my pregnancies were horrendous and deliveries life-threatening, I homeschooled, home birthed (risky business for one who’d already had 4 c-sections), home churched, “dared to shelter” my children from worldly influences ~ I was a helpmeet to my husband in every way possible, upholding his authority to the children, supporting him even when he was clearly in the wrong, trusting that in submitting to him, I was actually submitting to the Lord and that being so, I was confident that He would work everything out for good according to His perfect will.
What I finally was forced to acknowledge is that there are limits to what is possible ~ and a lifestyle of martyrdom and self-abnegation is unsustainable. The stress took such a toll on my health that I was practically bed-ridden and in danger of suffering organ failure from lack of blood pressure since my stress-response system had been taxed to the limit and no longer produced sufficient amounts of adrenaline to keep me functioning. I felt like a zombie ~ the living dead ~ but I kept going because I could do all things through Christ and I had the Holy Spirit to strengthen me. My sincere and deeply held convictions provided the motivation I needed to live such a demanding and difficult lifestyle.
But then I met my uncle, Ron ~ and we undertook an email correspondence which changed everything for me. I’m sure many of you will remember Ron from the frequent prayer requests and updates which I posted in which I explained that my uncle is not a Christian, but I really liked him and we’d been writing to each other. I was so thoroughly convinced of the truth of Christianity ~ I had a good comprehension of the best arguments for the defense of the Biblical worldview and was an articulate apologist for the faith ~ so I was not at all concerned that my uncle’s influence might in any way jeopardize my well-considered, logically consistent, readily defensible belief system.
We wrote to each other for nearly a year ~ and over time, my way of thinking began to change. For now, I won’t go into all the details of how I came to doubt the Bible’s authority and even the existence of a personal, all-powerful, all-knowing God ~ but by the time Ron and I discontinued our writing, the unthinkable had happened, and I was filled with doubts.
For a while, I tried to figure how much of my Christian beliefs I could salvage ~ what of the Bible message could I still claim as valid and acceptable? ~ was there a “core truth” that I could hold onto despite my rejection of the strict, literalistic interpretation which included such narrowly defined family roles? ~ but despite my almost frantic searching, I came up empty. None of it makes sense to me anymore ~ and the things which used to be beautiful and inspiring to me now seem hideous ~ petty, warped, and sick.
Anyone who’s read my previous writings knows where I have been, what I’ve believed, practiced and taught. Here’s how I see it now:
The Bible is an ancient text written in a time and culture radically different from our own. It was written by men who were privileged enough to know how to read and write ~ and it establishes a self-serving, male-dominated religion which uses the promise of Heaven and the threat of Hell to keep the disenfranchised content in their servitude. (OMG ~ I sound just like Karl Marx.)
It seems crazy that thousands of years later, we should be trying to emulate the family structure and gender roles of an ancient society which viewed women and children as property. Truthfully, I’m kind of pissed that I so willingly co-operated in my own oppression for so many years ~ I allowed myself and my children to be used to fulfill an egotistical fantasy of a man who desired to be king of his castle.
Patriarchy is a pretty sweet deal ~ for the man who gets a Proverbs 31 wife and a quiverfull of children like olive branches around his table. In that family set-up, Daddy reigns supreme. I know, I know ~ the teaching is that it’s actually the Lord Jesus whom the wife and children serve when they submit to and obey the father. And when I think about it ~ that’s so twisted! How convenient for the man that all this is clearly spelled out in the Word of God.
I realize that I sound like an angry feminist bitch ~ and I think to myself, “If only I could convince them that I tried my best ~ I did everything right!” Could it be that the failure is with the system, not with the burned-out and worn down women who are struggling to make it work?
The truth is, not all men are cut out for leadership in the home or church. And for those with controlling, punitive, and demanding tendencies, the practice of patriarchy in the home will only exacerbate their insatiable egos and lend an air of spiritual credence to their tyranny and abuse in the name of “protection” and spiritual covering.
The truth is, the woman who aspires to be a Proverbs 31 wife is setting herself up for failure. Often I have agonized over the overwhelming burden expressed by wives and mothers who feel they are not meeting the standard ~ they try so hard, and yet ~ there’s not enough of one woman to go around. Even with the help of the older daughters, the workload is ceaseless and the demands on her time and energy are bound to leave her feeling inadequate. Must be her lack of faith. Perhaps what she needs is to read another Vision Forum book or attend an Above Rubies conference wherein she’ll discover the KEY to making it all work, getting it all done.
Seriously ~ what Mothers of Many need is RELIEF ~ not another “revelation” about what truly constitutes the godly wife and mother. Not another pep-talk from Nancy to inspire her to “present her body a living sacrifice.” No more visions and bible verses to load her with guilt when she somehow doesn’t manage to reproduce the Garden of Eden within her godly home.
In the patriarchal world which I will no longer take part of, the Commanding Officers (the men) are forever waging war against the world and the devil. Wives and children are useful as foot soldiers and arrows in this daily battle for the Kingdom of God. Should a mother die in childbirth, she is hailed as a faithful, dedicated woman ~ hers is a martyr’s death. But if she should struggle ~ if she fails to reverence her husband despite his imperfections and failures to love her as Christ loves the church ~ if she should dare complain that she’s tired and overwhelmed ~ if she has a healthy self-preservation factor ~ or should she be a thinking woman who just can’t manage to adorn herself with that highly prized “meek and quiet spirit” ~ then she is a rebellious Jezebel ~ a reproach on the testimony of Christ. Likewise, the children are valued only in as much as they conform to the lifestyle chosen for them by their parents. If they should express their own opinions (but where would they form dissenting opinions when all influences are controlled by their protector and provider, i.e., Daddy?) they are made to fear for their soul’s salvation. It’s a world in which the only way to win (to be declared a faithful servant approved by the Lord), is to lose yourself ~ lay aside all your dreams, desires, wants, needs ~ your very life ~ and do it without complaint. That’s the way to win if you are a godly woman or a visionary daughter ~ for the man, it’s a whole different story.
Okay ~ I have to stop. Not that I don’t have plenty more to say ~ just that I know this letter sounds bitter and angry and I haven’t figured a way to convey my true feelings ~ that of betrayal and of having been used and of the frustration of having adopted a worldview which systematically denied my children their very selfhood.
To my kids, I apologize. To those who have been influenced by my articles and inspired by my family’s testimony ~ all I can say is … well, I actually don’t know what to say. I just don’t buy it anymore ~ it didn’t work for our family and my children paid the price. It’s one thing for me to lay my own life down in the service of God ~ but I’m no longer willing to sacrifice my children on the altar of “family values.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~NLQ Recommends ...
'Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment' by Janet Heimlich
‘Quivering Daughters‘ by Hillary McFarland
‘Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement‘ by Kathryn Joyce
Michelle says, Never enough babies!
I’m an ex-Christian (I’d now describe myself as an atheist), though my story is nothing like as amazing as yours. Kudos on waking up and getting out.
As others have said, there are forms of Christianity which aren’t as crazy as the kind you came out of. I’d still say they weren’t true, which is what mattered to me as an evangelical and what matters now.
Have you connected with other ex-Christians on the net? There’s a lot of support out there: de-conversion.com is one place where people share their stories.
All the best to you both,
Paul
Vyckie,
I did not see a way to contact you here and I would like to ask permission to put this entire post on my own blog. There are a few excerpts I could use, but I don’t want to loose any of the impact of the whole piece in the process. Could you contact me?
http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2007/02/contact-cindy-at-under-much-grace.html
Cindy K
Hello from another Salon visitor.
Congratulations on stepping out into the sunlight of free thought, and thanks for sharing such a fascinating story. I’m looking forward to hearing more about your correspondence with your uncle.
Thank you for your story. It makes me want to cry. I commend you for your courage and honesty. Hopefully others can find their way, too, inspired by you.
Whenever I’m troubled I reconnect with nature when I can. There is something about nature that is nothing like the dog-eat-dog little “ecosystem” that we gossipy humans create for ourselves. The wilderness and its animals don’t care what you look like, if you’re over- or underweight, what your IQ/SAT score is, all the little things I do that make me feel like Inspector Cluseau. I love music as well, and literature. I hope that you can now take some time for yourself and connect with things that you enjoy.
As I always say to people, I don’t tell anyone to follow my path (atheist) – follow your own, discover your own questions, and strive to become yourself. Everybody else is already trying to be everybody else (in various forms) – you are the only one who can give yourself and your talents to the world. Best wishes to you.
Self exaltation is self condemnation. You will learn this, if not now, later.
I know I’m late to the comment party here, but here’s my two yen:
Pulling out of an organization like that requires a supreme effort of will and a great deal of psychological grit to pull off. You’re losing your old friends, beliefs, and identity in general. I think there is a tendency to read this kind of story as a “triumph for reason,” which is fine- but I think that the emotional implications are even heavier than the rational ones, and I applaud you for having the strength to take that step.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
I don’t think you sound like Karl Marx, nor like an angry feminist bitch (yes, you sound like someone who wants a fair deal – and if that’s feminism then maybe it applies – but what’s wrong with that?) – most certainly not a bitch.
The truth is, not all men are cut out for leadership in the home or church.
Indeed not. I try hard to be a good father to my children, but I am very glad that their mother is there to tell me in very clear terms when she thinks I’m wrong. I would not be a better person (and certainly not a better parent) if she was not so forthcoming. I am very far from perfect, and so is she. We’re both more effective parents with the full partnership of the other. None of us are above criticism, and no man – no person – should be highly revered – and certainly not just for being male (what a horrible thing!).
We have two wonderful, kind, loving children, brimming over with personality and creativity, but it takes the combined effort of both of us to deal with everything that comes with trying to raise them. I have no idea how you even begin to manage with a large family, even in the best of circumstances (and it sounds like yours were far from best).
Thank you. You have my congratulations on taking a stand. It must have been a very difficult thing to do. All the best.
Oh, my dear, what a brave woman you are! I came here from a link from Laurie on the Pharyngula blog, but I will check out the Salon article next.
I myself am a liberal Christian, but my oldest daughter has been attracted to the Quiverfull heresy, so I try to keep tabs on it.
I am sickened by the way women-hating men have twisted Jesus’s message. One of the things that is clear about His ministry is that He deeply valued women as people. Not only in the story of Mary and Martha, but in all His interactions with women, He demonstrated the egalitarian values we now call feminism. His apostles Junia and Mary of Magdala and all His female followers, who travelled with Him around Judea, were as important to spreading His message as any of his male disciples. Remember that He appeared to the WOMEN first after the crucifixion. Remember also that WOMEN were the heads of many of the churches Paul planted, and Paul wrote to them with respect and high regard. (The anti-feminist messages found in some of the putative Pauline epistles are later interpolations, according to many scholars, and in my study of the New Testament I have come to fully agree with them.)
So call yourself a feminist proudly and loudly. In so doing, your are fully embracing the Christ’s own values. Let me recommend the valuable study called “Women in the Heart of God” (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/femalex.html). I think you will find it very enlightening.
Let me also point out that the Quiverfull heretics have twisted and misinterpreted the meaning of Proverbs 31. In fact, they’ve ignored the plain sense of the poem. There are 7 verses in this poem that celebrate the Virtuous Woman as the chatelaine of a household, a homemaker. There are also 7 verses that celebrate her as a BUSINESSWOMAN. Don’t tell me that someone out buying real estate on her own and running a profitable business in textiles is what we’d call today a housewife, carefully protected by her husband from “the world”! That’s just absurd! The Proverbs 31 woman is fully engaged as an autonomous individual both inside and outside her home.
I am infuriated by the patriarchy’s appropriation of this poem, which above all others in the Bible celebrates the full lives and value of women, for their deceitful and dominionist political agenda.
All this to say, I wish you all the best in your new spiritual journey. But if your heart turns back to the faith, please know that in Christ there is a place for the complete woman, valued by Him for her mind, body, and soul, in complete spiritual freedom and equal to all other human beings.
Thank you for your testimony, which must have been excruciating to live and to write. Embrace the spiritual gift of Prophecy, and continue to speak Truth to the power of the Quiverfull heresy. You’ll be in my prayers.
“Her children rise up and call her blessed . . . Many women have done noble things, but you surpass them all.”
I just wanted to say, reading this, that you are a very brave person. I can’t believe the amount of anguish you’ve been through, and I am so glad you can find a way out of it, and maybe find some happiness for yourself.
I cannot believe that women read the bible and not understand, as you do now, how it was written by men, not divine or otherwise, just men with a vested interest in keeping everybody in their ‘place’. Leigh Williams, above…just read Vyckie’s account of her life..and realise as she does that biblical interpretation does NOT favour women in any way…in all cases in the bible women are below animals in the eyes of so called god.
Don’t equivocate, wake up!
Once again Vyckie, you are incredibly brave and I wish you all the happiness you deserve.
Welcome to Reason!
Well, no, I don’t agree that “in all cases in the bible women are below animals in the eyes of God”. In fact, I can’t see anything like that in the New Testament. And it’s hard to make that argument in the face of Proverbs 31, either.
Of course, I am not of the literalist, inerrant crowd either. As a liberal Christian, I use the historical critical method of approaching Biblical study. A good explanation of the problematic passages in the New Testament can be found here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/nfe_bibl.htm
And I do think the church has been retreating from the radical egalitarianism espoused by Jesus and Paul for at least 1900 of the years since they were on earth. That retreat was fueled by patriarchy and ratified by cultural and intellectual cowards. Shame on the church, then . . . but freedom from patriarchy (and many other social ills) was Jesus’s message. We shouldn’t let the distortion and outright mangling of that message stand unchallenged. We Christians need to do all we can to stamp it out. It’s a heresy.
Beautiful post. I was raised in a lenient Catholic household, and the other Catholic children I saw were truly brainwashed. Even at a very young age I realized that the Bible isn’t as easily applicable to current daily lives as it was 2000 years ago. Welcome to the new coming – one of tolerance, understanding, and change.
Welcome.
Your strength brings teras to my eyes. Thank you for telling your story… even for those of us who can’t even begin to understand what you’ve gone through, just the fact that you made a change and stood up for yourself is inspiring beyond words.
I came by the Salon.com article and read this – sadly – with recognition from my involvement with the various abuse survival communities.
I call myself a diest or thiest these days, too many things have happened to convince me that there’s an absence of God. But that faith and experience tells me something that doesn’t seem commonly known in religions:
“Never let your morality get in the way of doing the right thing.”
Courage, healing and as is said in the survivor community – “Hugs, if acceptable.”
I am one of those Quiverfull kids– the second oldest of 7 and at 22, I’m still reeling from the impacts of this belief system.
While I have always been different and had the courage to protest and Get Out, I feel really sad when I think about my older sister who is 25, married with two kids, and ready to Fight the Fight of being a suppressed, stay-at-home wife and mother.
I admire you. I feel quite lucky to have escaped now when I’m young, and to have the chance to build relationships and a family in an egalitarian manner.
cheers to you!
I found this blog like many others, through Salon (and Skepchick). I wanted to say that I admire you greatly. I have never had to experience the shattering of my world view- I’m sure that had to be a terrifying time in your life. I’m in awe at how you have handled it, despite my lack of religious belief, I’m not sure how I would do in such circumstances, if every rule by which I lived my life turned out to be flawed. It took a great deal of courage on your part, I think.
You and your children are lovely, hang in there, and thank you so much for sharing your story.
-K
Awesome post, and congrats on getting out. I just de-converted to agnosticism (from being raised Assembly of God), but fortunately, I didn’t really experience anything like this Quiverfull movement during my life. One thing that has occurred to me during my doubts and such, though, is, “I there really is a God, then he’s kind of a dick.” I mean, there’s some cool stuff that happens in the bible, but take, for example, Abraham being asked to *murder* his son. Christians tell this story to their children, for goodness sake, to demonstrate that you should be obedient to God – but nobody ever mentions that if some guy in the present day made preparations to kill his child on the supposed word of God, we’d have him in jail. But in a bible story, it’s totally reasonable for God to ask a man to kill his child – and nothing at all is suggested that perhaps a deity that would ask this is perhaps not worth serving.
No judgment here–very brave post. I just found your blog.You might relate well to my post on the Christian Mother’s Version of the Perfect Madness http://hopewellmomschoolreborn.blogspot.com/2007/10/christian-mothers-version-of-perfect.html
Vyckie,
Brava to you for taking this step. It must have been very terrifying at times. I’m proud of you. It’s always hard to leave a cult-like environment after decades of indoctrination. Not only does one have to adjust her entire way of living and thinking internally, she must deal with the inevitable rejection and shaming from those who claimed to love her. If she has children, the difficulty is magnified. Well done.
No need to be dissing on feminists, hun – we’re the ones who have been saying for centuries that men have no right to treat us the way your husband treated you. Feminism is merely the strange, ridiculous, radical notion that women are people with thoughts, feelings, needs, and rights equal to those of men. And if we’re angry – AND WE ARE – it’s because for thousands of years men have set us up as a serving class, as property, as LESS THAN THEY ARE, as you have experienced. Welcome to our ranks. Good to have you! If your daughters would like an online forum where they can learn about feminist issues in the context of teen years, I recommend allgirlarmy.org. Check it out and see what you think.
I wish you and your kids all the best as you heal and rebuild.
Bravo on coming out of the cult. Best wishes and good luck from a happy religion free and child free couple in Seattle.
I got a taste of this movement myself, never using birth control and homeschooling. However, when I had my third I had such awful post-partum we decided this was not for us. Thankfully, many evangelical Christians have been deeply kind and supportive of our decision and have only helped our own Christian faith strengthen. I am so sorry you have not found the same. Suzie
The quiverfull movement is NOT Biblical truth, and although there may be some Christian’s involved in it, I’m quite sure it is NOT of God either. Remember Satan can appear as an angel of light, and even well meaning people can be deceived. Its sad, so very sad what happened to y’all. Thank goodness you are free of it, praying for your children’s escape as well.
You know what? When I de-converted from the S. Baptist church, I felt duped and bitter, too. I think it is natural and okay. No one likes to feel that they’ve been fooled and wasted their time.
I found you from the salon article and I am cheering you on! It feels great to look back on all of the stifling things I once believed and realize I don’t have to believe it anymore- I’m free! I feel so much healthier and better about myself. I feel less guilty about every little thing and less boxed in. Like me, you followed all the rules and it just didn’t work like they said it would. I’m glad you have gotten out and I hope you and your kids have a fun and fulfilling life together- on your own terms!
Others have already said it so well
1) How brave..
2) Not all christians think like this…
but also:
3) We do not have to strive. Receiving Gods forgiveness is to receive Jesus’ righteousness, which replaces ours. This is grace, and we can rest in it.
4) Your children are special to God and he loves them. He speaks so strongly against ‘any who cause one of these little ones of mine to stumble’. ‘He carries the lambs in his arms (them) and will gently lead those who are with young (you)’.
He has given them a special gift in you to be their mother.
Wow, Thanks for being brave enough to write this! I also came out of a fundamentalist background. My parents removed us while I was in my late teens and it screwed me up royally for many years. I am only now starting to really grasp what a relationship with God should look like, and how FREE it really can be.
I am married to a man who LOVES me, who doesn’t want to have more kids because the last one had me on death’s doorstep. He loves kids, but wants me around too. So i can be a Missionary to my two kids, so I can teach them TRUTH, LOVE and how to live a FREE life.
I know your kids are applauding you, I know as they get older they will look back and be ever grateful for a Mom who loved them enough to do the hard thing.
You are a strong, wise, beautiful woman, and I am so glad you “got out”
Don’t be afraid to be an atheist. All religions are, at their basis, made up by people. Some just have longer traditions than others. Choose a religion based on how it feeds you, not how you feed it. (That will come in time–you will give back with enthusiasm and love, and will receive more than you put in.) Religion should not make you weaker, or sad, or allow you to be abused. Why would you choose that?
If you do not believe in God, you don’t. And you don’t need to. Hang out with other people who don’t. Or who aren’t sure. We are out there, all around you.
This “angry feminist b*tch” is filled with admiration for what you are doing.
As a side note, feminism isn’t about anger, hating men, or even hating the patriarchy. It’s about loving people as a whole– enough to recognize that the adversarial way in which men and women relate to one another is deeply flawed and is based on underlying social problems that need to be acknowledged before they can be fixed. There is anger, as there is in all things, but there is more joy.
Thanks so much, Hypatia. I have been thinking about my “angry feminist bitch” comment ~ and that’s another thing I want to write about.
Stick with us ~ I’ll get it done eventually
I’m sure this comment has been already been posted, but one more can’t hurt.
Please stop apologizing for sounding “bitter and angry” or like “a feminist bitch.”
First, you have every right to be bitter and angry. You were used. You admirably found the strength to defy your abusers and you don’t owe anyone an apology for being pissed about it.
Secondly, you are a feminist. That’s a good thing. It’s hard to embrace a title the patriarchs have worked so hard (and successfully) to vilify, I know, but please try. You know why they’ve crusaded to make it an ugly philosophy – it’s a threat to them.
You empowered yourself and you deserve to be proud, not apologetic. I’m sure most of the anger will subside as it’s replaced with a deeper understanding and acceptance of your individuality. In the meantime, accept it while you get to know yourself.
Congratulations. You are an incredibly strong person who deserves to experience the world on your terms. Embrace it and enjoy every minute of it.
You are SO BRAVE!!! As a younger woman who was, for a time, quite taken with the public face of Quiverfull – thank you for sharing your story. Your children are SO LUCKY to have such a loving mother. Best wishes to you and your family.
Best wishes to you Vyckie, and to Laura.
Vyckie,
I used to be a member of Above Rubies, I left the group because I just couldn’t go for the all or nothing approach to christianity. I was blasted for not being QF, not homeschooling, going back to school, ect. I am still a christian, but have fallen away from the CULT thinking of that group. And believe in SOME of the helpmeet/proverbs 31 wife ideals, but it isnt all or nothing. I dont need to be a slave, to serve the Lord. I just found your blog and am interested to see the rest of your blog.
Welcome, mom2nji ~ good to have a fellow “ex~Above Rubies” mom here. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the stories you’ll find on this blog.
Holy crap!
I ended up here because vjack http://www.atheistrev.com posted about the importance of keeping up on what Xians are doing, and follwed a link from http://www.religiousrightwatch.com/
I normally deal with Xian stupidity on the scientific and political front, which is bad enough, but the stories on this blog almost made me physically ill — in this day and age, organized efforts to make women and children behave as property?
Your stories are important, for they show why real Americans (who know that God is not mentioned once in the founding document of our nation, the Constitution) need to zealously protect the separation of church and state. Given the insularity of the movement, I think that few of my fellow atheists know (or realize) exactly how far originally normal people can sink, as is described here, into the acceptance of horror and immorality as normality and ethical behavior.
Thank you for telling your stories.
Congratulations on your courage! I am 62 now and had a brief (six months) involvement with fundamentalism in 1977 when I lived in Omaha. I had moved there from Boston, a bastion of liberality where I had a responsible job and a life of my own choosing. I left Boston after losing my parents and chose Omaha because I had friends there.
I was befriended by some fundamentalists and tried to fit in, but never could. They called me an intellectual and made it sound like a curse; they wanted me to stop reading anything but the Bible (I love fantasy and science fiction, which are anathema to them). Since I was single and thus had no male to whom to submit, the church elders took responsibility for me and would call me if I missed a week to make sure that I wasn’t backsliding.
I tremble to think what my life would have been like if I had married one of these people. I had friends who had children that were being raised strictly and in cultural isolation; I often wonder how damaged they were in later life. I remember gays who had been “cured” of homosexuality and had married; I also often wonder how much pain those relationships caused. I left the church after 6 months after an incident which blasted me with the hypocrisy of the so-called “love of Christ” that they preached. It was all hollow. The elders kept calling until I eventually moved away from Omaha, but I never went back.
I was born again during this experience and still consider myself a strong Christian. However, I no longer attend church, as I have never found one in which I (as a single woman, albeit with a long-term man in my life who is only vaguely Christian) can feel comfortable. I was raised a Lutheran and still consider myself one, but churches just turn me off.
Stay true to yourself and stay on your journey to find out who you really are. Be strong, and don’t be afraid to believe in Jesus if that is where your journey leads. His Word is perverted by many, but He is really all about Love. That’s the only thing that counts in life.
What a story… amazing. Saw your link attached to a post on an article at Alternet.org interviewing Kathryn Joyce about Quiverfull.
I had a Bob Jones-style fundamentalist upbringing, and I eventually ended up leaving Christianity altogether as a result (or consequence, LOL) of my involvement in a “Bible-based cult.” Claiming ownership of my own heart and soul has been a difficult road, but I would not trade it for anything. May peace, happiness and wisdom be yours as you continue moving forward.
P.S. some of my best friends are “Angry Feminist Bitches.” :-} I wouldn’t trade *them* for anything, either.
I grew up in a cult in an abusive household. What I am finding amazing is that there are people still in the cult that live fairly normal lives, normal being what is considered normal by our present culture in the US. I never knew that there were “normal” families within our “religion”. I just thought that everyone kowtowed to the leaders like my parents expected us to do.
My point is simply this. Your experiences with your very abusive husband may color your outlook. Others who can balance similar beliefs within a more normal family structure would have a totally different outlook. Even though our church would be considered more of a fundamental church, it is very highly stressed that the husband’s role is to love his wife as his own flesh. Women are NOT 2nd class citizens and we are all equal in God’s eyes.
We are homeschooling, children not segregated by age, and several other things are similar but I think it is unfair to paint all of us with the same brush. Your abusive husband seems to be a large part of the problem. If the husband was not abusive it would change the whole perception of someone who held beliefs similar to what you once believed…
I was raised in a cult (not the homeschool, quiverfull movement) so I know of what I speak….
Anon,
I agree, in that I think I would probably be a pretty happy camper in the QF/homeschooling system in many respects, had I had a fully functioning husband. I’m not sure if I would have ever had much of a reason to question the teachings at all, had everything been running smoothly and my marriage relationship been sweet.
YET, and it’s a big yet…one of the biggest criticisms of this group/movement is what they do to people and families who don’t fit the system. Vyckie (or was it Laura’s) friends who didn’t want to sell her a Bosch unless her husband had revoked his earlier no-Bosch command are a case in point.
Instead of a healthy community that recognizes abuse and helps those who are being abused, the teachings of this community tend to minimize abuse (sometimes even outrightly encouraging it), often denying it altogether.
This is probably the biggest indicator that something is terribly wrong with the picture. Though, yes, there are families in it who are happy and thriving—and would be happy and thriving if they weren’t in the QF/homeschooling paradigm—because they are just great families.
It’s hard enough for women to recognize and escape abuse as it is, if the studies are accurate, yet when the abuse happens within the confines of the teachings of this kind of group, it’s sort of like, as one professional who works with these women regularly once told me, “the perfect storm.”
Sure some QF families are wonderful, happy families, I have known a few myself. But you can’t get away from the abusiveness of the teaching because no matter how functional and happy the family is that happiness hinges on the children embracing the beliefs of their parents. If you are growing up in one of these happy QF families and find yourself:
Doubting God’s existance.. or
Attracted to your own gender.. or
You’re a girl who reads a copy of Scientific America in the dentist’s waiting room and your mind comes ALIVE and you want to become a scientist..
Well, you know that if you pursue any of these things you will break your happy QF family. Your parents will see themselves as having failed if you pursue these ideas or feelings. This is not normal, this is not a healthy way for any family to be. Healthy families know that their children are diverse and that their children may well make choices quite different than the parents. Healthy families do not view choices outside of the parents choices as rebellion.
I realize this sounds harsh but I cannot see happy QF families as healthy because that happiness is so conditional.
I understand where you are coming from, I really do. I still think it goes back to family dynamics more that QF. Maybe QF tends to draw those that tend to be abusive, there could be a case made for that, but if the family is healthy, the way the family responds to the child(ren) that don’t agree will be very telling.
Like I posted above, we are homeschooling,lean towards QF, etc, etc. Our pastor teaches we don’t want out kids to believe what we believe just because that is what we believe. We want our kids to believe because they have come to an understanding of their own accord.
We expose them to the pros and cons, the “other” sides views and arguements. Sure, we want our kids to believe what we believe, but if it isn’t from their own conviction, what point is it? It surely isn’t of God, He leads us through our convictions and if we aren’t allowing them to develop their own convictions it is counterintuitive.
Anon, I know it’s easier to blame the individuals rather than the system, but any system that encourages flawed individuals while repressing others is flawed themselves. by your logic, dictators aren’t bad, it’s just that some dictators are. sounds silly, doesn’t it?
any system, be it religious, political, business, or community, must be built in such a way as to encourage the good things in people, and discourage the bad. any system that does the opposite is must be fixed or discarded, regardless of how well it works if in the hands of good people.
Jadehawk:”any system, be it religious, political, business, or community, must be built in such a way as to encourage the good things in people, and discourage the bad.”
The problem with fundamentalism is the things labeled “bad” are soooooo vast. I cannot have relatives I care about to my house because one of my teenagers might be listening to music that they would label bad. One of my kids might be lying on the couch reading Harry Potter. One of my adult children might say “shit” if they drop a can on their foot in the kitchen. It goes on and on and on.. heck all they have to do is peruse my bookcases to find plenty of bad. It would just be incredibly stressful to put my family under that level of judgment, not to mention the grilling my husband would receive later on about about why he allowed such things in the home (because of course if there is anything bad he is accountable based on his gender, LOL).
lol, i see i should have defined the word “bad”, or used something a bit more specific.
I was talking from a humanistic, progressive point-of-view, meaning that everything that fosters inequality and suppression or does mental or physical harm is “bad”.
I suppose we could start a whole new argument about the definition of and meaning of “good” and “bad”. but for the moment I guess I’ll just correct my statement and say:
“any system, be it religious, political, business, or community, must be built in such a way as to encourage the freedom and integrity of people, and discourage suppression and inequality.”
That is why we expose our kids to “both sides” and explain why we believe what we believe but let them make their own decisions. Of course when they are 6yo we do protect them from certain “bad” things but our 15yo is expected to make certain decisions on her own. Like whether or not to read Harry Potter (she does), watch movies (she does), and tons of other things along similar lines. But she fiercely protects her younger siblings from some of the very things she chooses to do. At least until they are old enough to start making some of the same decisions. I don’t agree with some of her decision, I have told her so. I have also told her her job isn’t to make me happy. We can disagree but both still be doing what is right for us.
NOT EVEN SURE IF YOU READ ALL THESE COMMENTS, BUT FOR WHAT IT’S WORTH, HERE’S MY TWO CENTS:
THERE’S A BIG DIFFERENCE IN FOLLOWING A CAUSE AND FOLLOWING THE LIVING CHRIST. BIG DIFFERENCE FROM FOLLOWING AN IDEA, AND FOLLOWING THE ONE WHO CREATED ALL PEOPLE AND ALL THINGS. FROM WHAT I GATHER FROM READING YOUR POST, YOU’RE HURT, ANGRY, FEEL BETRAYED, FEEL DECEIVED……ARE THOSE THINGS YOU’RE FEELING? I’D LOVE TO EMAIL WITH YOU, IF YOU WANT. I COULDN’T FIND A LINK TO EMAIL YOU ON YOUR SITE. HERE’S MINE: elocinsej@yahoo.com
I’VE WRITTEN A TON ABOUT SOME OF THE THINGS YOU’RE FEELING, AS THE PAST FIFTEEN MONTHS OF MY LIFE I’VE BEEN FEELING SOME OF THE SAME THINGS FOR DIFFERENT REASONS. YOU’RE MORE THAN WELCOME TO STOP BY AND READ, IF YOU’RE INTERESTED. ALSO, THIS BLOG IS VERY ENCOURAGING, AND I THINK IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING YOU’D LIKE READING: http://agenuinefaith.blogspot.com
P.S. I WONDER IF “APOSTASY” IS THE RIGHT WORD FOR WHAT YOU’RE DOING….SOUNDS MORE LIKE YOU’RE WALKING AWAY FROM A CERTAIN GROUP OF PEOPLE’S WAY OF THINKING…….JUST WANTED TO ADD THAT ON. CHRIST NEVER CALLED US TO LIVE AS DOORMATS, BUT IN FREEDOM…..AND WHEN IT COMES TO HOW A WIFE LOVES HER HUSBAND, HE SHOULD BE WORTHY OF THAT LOVE!! EPHESIANS TELLS US HE IS TO LOVE HIS WIFE AS CHRIST DOES THE CHURCH….AND WHAT DID CHRIST DO FOR THE CHURCH??….BOTH LIVED AND DIED FOR HER….HE LITERALLY GAVE HIS EVERY BREATH FOR HER, WHEN A HUSBAND IS DOING THAT FOR HIS WIFE, IT BRINGS A DIFFERENT LIGHT INTO THE SITUATION.
jesnicole ~ I understand how, from reading this post, you would come to the conclusion that I was merely following a “movement” rather than actually having a relationship with the living Christ.
Please read “Vyckie’s Story” (found on the right-hand column) ~ the testimony of my conversion and first couple of years as a Christian. The reason that I am sharing that story ~ just as I wrote it when I believed it ~ is because I want to make it clear that I was deeply committed to Jesus Christ as my Savior AND LORD. I was never a half-assed Christian.
Getting involved in the QF/patriarchy teachings was a big part of my story, yes ~ BUT my heart was always for knowing God and living for Him. I was a wholly-devoted Believer and lover of my Lord Jesus Christ.
Vyckie – Good response! I have to say, I was a little worried that you were simply reacting to your (horrible) situation – and that this was the driving factor for your becoming an atheist – rather than it simply be a (admittedly large) factor in your “enlightenment”, and that you are now an atheist because it is *right* for you, rather than it simply being the antithesis of what you were running away from. Does that make sense?
I think that the answer is the latter – your life helped “awaken” your reason and rational thought, but you are now “comfortable in your own skin” as an atheist. And that’s a very kewl thing.
Take care,
–Rock, aka LotusGeek
P.S. I am at a boring conference for my business, and so I have a ton of time to post today – that’s why I keep popping up all over the place
OH YES, I FULLY BELIEVE YOU WERE FOLLOWING HIM WITH YOUR WHOLE SELF. THE PROBLEM IS, MANY TIMES WE ARE MISLEAD AS TO WHO CHRIST IS…..HECK, LOOK AT ALL THE DENOMINATIONS, CULTS (I.E. THIS “QUIVERFULL” NONSENSE)….WHEN ONE SEARCHES THE BIBLE AND HISTORY FOR THE MAN AND THE LORD JESUS, I BELIEVE THEY WILL FIND THE TRUTH. EMPTY DOCTRINE, EMPTY CAUSES, EMPTY FAITH, AND SHALLOW THINKING WILL GET US NOWHERE. I SURELY NEVER WANTED TO IMPLY THAT YOU WERE BEING “HALF-ASSED”. SORRY IF IT CAME ACROSS THAT WAY. HOWEVER, I BELIEVE IF YOU WERE TO COME FACE TO FACE WITH CHRIST, WITH WHO HE IS…..YOU’D NEVER WANT TO WALK AWAY. THAT’S WHY I SUGGESTED THAT MAYBE YOU’RE STILL SEARCHING AND TO PUT ANY LABEL ON YOURSELF SUCH AS “COMMITTING APOSTASY” OR BECOMING “ATHEIST”…MAYBE IT’S A LITTLE SOON FOR EITHER.?? FROM WHAT I CAN SEE, YOU’RE A LADY WHO WANTS TO FIND OUT THE TRUTH. RIGHT? (KEEP IN MIND, I’M ASKING THESE GENUINELY…..IT’S SOMETIMES EASY TO SEEM THAT ONE IS COMING ACROSS AS BEING HATEFUL ONLINE…BUT I AM DEFINITELY BEING GENUINE IN MY QUESTIONS TO YOU….WITHOUT AN ATTITUDE OF HAUGHTINESS…) IF INDEED, YOU ARE STILL SEARCHING, STILL ASKING, STILL WONDERING….YOU’LL ALWAYS END UP WITH THE HISTORICAL FACT THAT JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED AND RESURRECTED. PEOPLE DON’T COME BACK FROM BEING DEAD. THAT’S THE CLENCH IN THE GEARS OF ATHEISM. I, ON THE OTHER HAND, CAN SURELY SEE YOUR SCARS AND BETRAYAL FROM THE CRAP (WHAT I THINK WAS CRAP, ANYWAY,) THAT WAS BEING HANDED TO YOU ABOUT THE CHURCH. I COMMEND YOU FOR COMING OUT OF THAT ERRONEOUS MINDSET….BUT I ENCOURAGE YOU AT THE SAME TIME TO SEARCH FOR WHAT IS TRUE. WITHOUT THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST, WE ARE A HOPELESS PEOPLE. WITHOUT HIS CRUCIFICTION, WE ARE HOPELESS. BUT IN KNOWING THAT, WHICH IS A PROVEN FACT, ONE SIMPLY CAN’T SEE AND WALK AWAY. I’M FINE IF YOU DELETE THIS COMMENT, I REALLY DON’T CARE IF ANYONE READS THIS BUT YOU. I GUESS WHAT I’M WONDERING IS IF YOU’RE WALKING AWAY FROM A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO HURT YOU DEEPLY, AND DECEIVED YOU GREATLY…..OR FROM JESUS. THERE’S A BIG DIFFERENCE, AND I THINK ONLY YOU, NOT ANY OTHER PERSON IN YOUR LIFE, NOR ANYONE ON ANY BLOG, CAN ANSWER THAT HONESTLY. I HAVE NEVER MET YOU, BUT I WILL DEFINITELY BE THINKING ABOUT YOU. I HOPE YOU FIND THE TRUE ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS.
“WHEN ONE SEARCHES THE BIBLE AND HISTORY FOR THE MAN AND THE LORD JESUS, I BELIEVE THEY WILL FIND THE TRUTH.”
please do NOT bring history into this. it’s one thing to believe the bible on faith, but to twist history to your beliefs is not right! there’s no hint of a historical Jesus outside the Christian texts (and for a broader, non-canonical picture on him i’d suggest reading the gospels of Judas, Thomas, and Mary Magdalene), so we’re not even sure he really existed… and there’s no historical evidence at all for anything he’s said to have done. Plus the story of the crucifixion gets a LOT of details about the roman empire of the time wrong. it’s all very suspect. so please don’t say the crucifixion (much less the resurrection) are historical facts.
Also, please stop with the CAPSLOCK. yelling is impolite, and it’s hard to read.
Jessica? Mind turning off the caps lock? It’s difficult to follow.
thx