Another note: We were created for God’s love, ourselves. That means that if someone who claims to love us wants to mistreat us, we are not to let them– because we are worth too much to be treated like that! Real love means not letting someone walk all over you– because it’s bad for them as well as for you. It isn’t love to tolerate disrespect and belittling. It isn’t loving yourself and it isn’t loving the person who’s doing it, either.

Vyckie wrote:

So ~ what exactly does that look like in practicality? I’m assuming you don’t mean “trust your gut feeling” ~ please explain HOW a person would go about “simply living in God.” How would you know what He wants? Seems to be that the choice is between intuition and revelation.

I don’t know if you read what I wrote in another thread about “trusting your gut feelings,” Vyckie– but in fact I do (with certain checks and balances) mean that it is, indeed, ok to “trust your gut” a lot of the time. 1 John says, “You have the anointing within you, and need no one to teach you.” Paul said to the Athenians in the Book of Acts that “God is not far from any of us, for in Him we live and move and have our being.”

So– if God is actually the Root and Source of being, and is closer to us than we can understand, there has to be some validity to “trusting our gut.” Of course, our deepest hunches can go off– largely due to things like fear (If I do what I’m really feeling is right, what will my peers think? What will those in authority say?) or other problems.

So we can use reason and understanding– in terms of finding guiding principles that work– to tell us when our gut isn’t leading us in the way of peace (although a lot of times our gut will know that, too). But I have found, for my own life, that just using my reason and understanding to be skeptical and mistrusting of everything, even what could help me most, tends to be shooting myself in the foot.

I find it helps to think of the Bible in terms of principles, not all those specific details which are so culturally related and so easy to misunderstand, because we tend to read passages through the framework of our own experience and place in history, rather than seeking to understand what the words might have meant in the original culture and then going from there.

There are several general principles I have gleaned from the NT in particular:

God is love

Love is doing to others what you would have them do to you

We are not meant to seek our own power and aggrandizement (yes, this means pastors and husbands!) but to serve– and this idea was specifically meant to counteract the idea of “I’m powerful and you’re not, therefore I’m right and you’re wrong.”

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, etc. If we aren’t experiencing these things, we are probably not walking in the Spirit.

Anyone whose method of living is about “I’m right and you’re wrong,” or “I hate and mistrust you” isn’t walking in the Spirit. That’s not to say we don’t use common sense to protect ourselves– we don’t wear trust on our sleeves– but we aren’t afraid to give trust when it seems right, either.

None of this is about certainty. Christians want the certainty of knowing what to do at all times; they want the security of rules and regulations. In short, they prefer the knowledge of good and evil over the messiness of life in Love. But faith is not about certainty, it’s about trust. I am certain the reason God doesn’t give us certainty is that God really does want us to think for ourselves, to learn for ourselves, to be free. This is what Love does– it doesn’t bind, it sets free. This is what love does– it doesn’t ask for the control that certainty gives (I want to know where you are and who you’re with every minute!) Love trusts. We can love God by trusting God, too, even as God trusts us by allowing us to make mistakes– we wish God would stop us from falling into the trap of death-giving law, rules and regs– but God lets us learn from it instead.

So– I can’t give you any method for what isn’t a method; I can’t give you rules for how to not live by rules. I can say it helps to pray; it helps to listen to other people whom you love and who love you (but love shouldn’t hurt, and if it does, it probably is a power struggle and not love at all). It helps to sing hymns; it can help to read the Bible, but not if the Bible has been used as an instrument of law and death in your life.

My sister discovered that mixing Taoism with her Christianity helped. There’s a lot to that idea, I think . . .

But really, love itself is kind of simple. You simply do it. 1 Corinthians 13 talks a lot about what it looks like when we’re doing it, or when it is (or isn’t) being done for us. As in, love is patient, kind, not selfish, trusting. . .

KR Wordgazer

Vyckie,
Following certain teachings to their logical end is often the first step that will lead to rejecting them. I’ve thought about how cruel it is to bring children into the world, not knowing whether they will attain eternal life or choose eternal damnation, but I must admit it’s one of those things I’ve set aside as too painful to think about.

I was also taught that spanking is the answer (yes, another rule that seems to be part and package of the QF movement). When you spank them, you save them from hell. ( Pearl teaching)

This week (some of you) are heading into Easter and I’m heading into Passover. I’m a non believer who loves Passover not because of the actual text–I find the slaughter of the egyptians really disturbing on every level–but because of the injunction that we are to perform the entire thing through questions, and that we must at all time be open to questions. Its not, for me, about certainity–this story *means* this or that. We get the chance, if we do it right, to reflect on *many* stories and *many* meanings.

Judaism, like Buddhism and Islam and Christianity places a huge emphasis on study and on the community–in Buddhism you say “I trust in the Sangha” and in Judaism you are supposed to study with a buddy because the individual’s gut reaction, their independent and often idiosyncratic approach to the sacred texts, can be very deceptive. But I prefer also to say that we need to study together in order to rise together, to create better communities, to challenge ourselves and our solipsistic view of the text and of our lives. This is my “midrash” in a sense and an answer to whether someone like Vyckie “went wrong” by trusting her gut or trusting the lord. She didn’t. She went wrong, if you can say that, by submitting herself to the will of a community that was not willing to submit itself to *her* will. She put herself in a master/disciple relationship with one other person instead of insisting on a mutually satisfying student/student relationship and she accepted the right of a community that didn’t fully value her to determine her goals and her methods.

To my mind that leads me to think that Vyckie (and all of us) need to carefully choose a new community that fully enables us as students in whatever field of endeavour we aim at–god? nursing? motherhood?–and that treats us as equals with a common goal.

Slightly OT but I’m collapsing a couple of comments into one. I wish you could be here for Passover at our house, Vyckie, I think you’d have a blast! Though you’d max out our tables with your kids!

aimai

I compare the situation to a cumputer, or one of those toy robots. you give it a command, and it obeys (unless it’s a windows machine, which are possessed by demons, but that’s a different story); but if someone else puts in a different command that contradicts it, it will obey the new command. that’s what viruses etc. do.
and that’s how I see the situation in that story. before the fall, adam and eve obeyed mindlessly, without ability for discernment. and they couldn’t know that obeying god=good, but obeying serpent=evil, because they didn’t have the knowledge of good and evil!
you can’t have free will without conscience, i.e. the ability to tell good and evil apart. this is why animals who kill don’t do so out of free will, but a human who murders does do it out of free will.

also, I read the tree of life and the tree of knowledge as complimentary. the story tells of us being created in the image of god, and if we ate of both trees, we’d be like him (or them, as the case may be).

like i said, the story makes sense as a metaphor for our half-animal, half-angel nature and as a myth with a “small” god at the head, but not with an all-powerful, all-living, all-knowing god. such a god would have been able to create beings who know the difference between good and evil, and desire good much more than they desire evil (unlike in reality where we’re repulsed by what we’re TRAINED to perceive as evil, with some very basic exceptions). creating a thing with flaws is a human or natural attribute, not a divine one.

My faith isn’t oppressive, it’s freeing. It’s freedom that nobody else, nor anything else can offer. I have been in many circles of American Christianity….know where I’ve learned the most? The academy. For me, staying true to the text (i.e. textual criticism) has opened my eyes to see that the Bible isn’t “inerrant”…..it never claims that for itself!! That’s a word people have put on it, just like some try to make the Bible say many things, and like people try to create this Jesus who is not the true one. For me, I had to unlearn much of what I was taught. I have, and still will ask all the hard questions, because that’s how my faith has and will continue to be strengthened. We all come to the Bible with our predispositions. (American, Mexican, Jamaican, man, woman, child, grandmother, poor, rich…) But, textual criticism opened my eyes to many things that were false. That’s why I commented on this site to begin with, because so many of the topics are about getting out of oppression….and I truly, truly rejoice for you who have. My point is that the Historical Jesus, the Living One, is not a God of oppression. He’s the God of freedom……

To go on with this, thank you, KR Wordgazer, for mentioning what you did on this thread. Something that just “rips my knittin’s” is when people say “the Bible says…” and then go on to explain something that they know nothing about. That’s what I run into so much. When dealing with the death of my Momma just a handful of months ago, people said, “It’s okay, God will never give you more than you can handle…”. THAT’S A LOAD OF CRAP!!! Nowhere in the Bible does it say that. On the contrary, we’ll be given much more than we can “handle”….because that’s what Scripture teaches. We can’t do it on our own, nor were we meant to. Because at some point, no matter how “strong” we strive to be, the sorrows that life bring will quickly remind us that our strength does have an end. Living in community brings healing and hope in more ways than people understand. Jesus didn’t even do it alone, he had His disciples. I learned the very, very hard way that grief was never meant to be carried alone. I guess I’m writing all this to say what I’d mentioned before….people can very easily take something in the Bible and make it say something it never said. This is where textual criticism has a place for me. Many people keep mentioning their reasons as to whether Jesus did or didn’t exist….whether he was just a man, or more than that. People can go on arguing, or debating for days, and they have been…for years! But the burden of proof is alllllllllways on the individual. For me, when I look around at life and all the tragedy and sorrow that comes with it…..the hope I have in Him gets me through each day. The hope in knowing that death and suffering aren’t the final word; Jesus is. I can’t speak for everyone, nor will I ever try to…but for me, I know what I believe and why I believe it. The proof is there….I see it everyday. Because I look around and see the grief many people deal with, and if I don’t hope in Him, evil and death have already won. There are many Believers in Christ who really do use our minds…..we’re not all shallow, conservative, uneducated people who believe anything we hear. I’ve learned not to settle for what I hear and see from others…..the burden of proof is on me, just as it is on every individual.

Thanks for reading if you have.

-Jesnicole-

why I don’t believe in hell

You know, KR ~ in all my years as a Christian, I never heard it stated quite like what you’ve written here. I want to think about this more because something about what you’re calling “Walking in the Spirit” really appeals to me.

So ~ what exactly does that look like in practicality? I’m assuming you don’t mean “trust your gut feeling” ~ please explain HOW a person would go about “simply living in God.” How would you know what He wants? Seems to be that the choice is between intuition and revelation.

Either you trust the feelings within ~ which is highly subjective, or you rely on the “written word” ~ which I used to believe is the more objective approach ~ but with all the various interpretations out there, living according to the “Word of God” turns out to be fairly subjective too.

If you tell me that as a “True Believer” God will guide me and I will know the way (My sheep hear my voice and won’t follow another ~ I know that’s not an exact quote, I’ve been deliberately trying to forget all the passages I had memorized) ~ I’m gonna scoff because I’ve had this experience of truly knowing, loving and following Christ and His word ~ and it really screwed me up and created a horrible home for my kids.

Don’t take this as a confrontational-type challenge, KR ~ I’m really interested in thinking this through.

Thanks for you (ALL of you) input.

god created a mindless a conscienceless animal, and that it was the fruit from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that gave people a conscience, and therefore free will. Even as a metaphor, you’re still left with “conscience and free will cost us paradise”.

That seems to me to be reading quite a lot into the text, actually.

Adam and Eve were clearly not “mindless” before they ate of the fruit, and it’s quite clear they had free will before they ate– or they would have simply obeyed God’s command not to eat. Whether or not you take the story literally (I don’t), there is no reason to believe it says, “attaining a conscience robbed us of paradise.”

The way I read it is, the serpent said, “God’s holding out on you– lying to you so you won’t reach your full potential. God’s just trying to control you– this one rule He has made is just holding you back. He knows this but is keeping it from you. He’s not good and can’t be trusted.” So the man and woman believed the serpent who was a stranger, rather than the God who loved them, who had always walked with them in the Garden; and they decided they didn’t trust Him after all. He had given them a choice because love, to be real love, must be an act of free will– but He also told them which choice would end up being bad for them.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is the opposite of the Tree of Life– it represents living by law, boxes, categories, rules and roles, rather than simply living free in God’s presence. The choice represents the choice we all have– to live according to rules and regulations, or to live according to simple love. “Walking in the Spirit” in the New Testament is stepping away from being under law and regulation– away from being ruled by the knowledge of good and evil, and coming back to the Tree of Life which is simply living in God, Who is Love.

Fundamentalist movements that teach “gotta homeschool, can’t use birth control, gotta submit–do this, do that– to prove you’re holy” are stepping right back into law, into the knowledge of good and evil– and the law kills. It is the Spirit who gives life, and the simple, life-giving “love one another” is the command that brings freedom.

As for Hell, there are no references to it in the Old Testament (“Sheol” means “the grave”), and in the New Testament, the references are pretty much all either given in parables (in Jesus’ teachings) or in symbolic language (in the Book of Revelation). There are a lot of choices besides believing in a literal Hell of eternal, conscious torment. There are other ways to read the Bible than taking all those metaphors and symbols literally.

KR Wordgazer