by Vyckie
The Duggar family is in the news again ~ the oldest son, Joshua’s wife is pregnant with the first grandchild.
Oh how I used to admire the Duggars! I was in awe of Michelle ~ and I so wished that Angel could spend time with the Duggar girls ~ maybe a little of their compliance and enthusiasm for the Quiverfull lifestyle would have rubbed off ~ and then we could all continue on in our illusion that QF/P is actually a wonderful, godly lifestyle which makes for happy families. …
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NLQ recommended reading:
‘Quivering Daughters‘ by Hillary McFarland
‘Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement‘ by Kathryn Joyce
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~NLQ Recommends ...
'Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment' by Janet Heimlich
‘Quivering Daughters‘ by Hillary McFarland
‘Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement‘ by Kathryn Joyce
Michelle says, Never enough babies!
This comment apparently did get eaten, even though it said it went through. So here’s the re-post:
I just want to say that I understand the temptation to try to convince those who still follow a path that you have left, for what seemed to you like good reasons, that they should leave too. I feel it to with regard to the organization I left behind, ISKCON. (International Society for Krishna Consciousness)
What I’ve come to understand is that each person has their own unique history and psychology, and what became toxic for me may be what they still need to feel whole and secure. Whether that changes for them in time is for them to discover.
I came to ISKCON out of a chaotic childhood. I needed to understand why I was suffering–my prime motivation for joining and adopting that philosophy. The doctrine of karma made sense to me. Living in the temple provided a structured life that I really needed to regain my equilibrium. Eventually I married in the movement and that turned out to be very painful for me, for reasons I list in links I’ve already provided. The marriage replicated parts of my childhood, as first marriages by young people often do. Divorce was not supported so I tried to stick it out but finally ended it. It was 6 years before I also left the philosophy behind, when I came out and found no place for me there anymore.
Someone else with a more positive marriage experience might still be quite happy there. Who am I to tell them otherwise?
Having been told what to do and how to think first by my grandmother and then by temple authorities and my husband, I’ve become allergic to telling others how to live their lives. I think all we can really do is share our own experiences. If they resonate with someone and cause them to rethink their circumstances, that’s their choice. If not, again that’s their choice.
I know it doesn’t feel like QF women have choices. It doesn’t seem like Hare Krishna women had choices after they joined, either. But choice is still there, as evidenced by women who’ve left both systems.
–Tapati
Kelly,
I was giving you the truth when I said that the oldest manuscripts don’t have “submit” in verse 22. Yes, some of the newer ones do. But I never said that none of the manuscripts had “submit” in them. I specifically said the older manuscripts don’t have it. There was no reason for you to say that what I said was false. It wasn’t.
I’m still really upset about this because I feel like I was indirectly called a liar. I sure would like to hear from you about this. Will I?
aimai,
I don’t have time to read all your posting, so I will just address the one point you were making, which was not my point. I was talking “personally” on one family that I know, where I *wondered* if there might be abuse. I do not know Vykie and Laura personally, so I cannot count them in my personal connection of families, sorry.
a.b.e.,
Is there suppose to be a link in that posting of yours, to me? If so, I don’t see it….I’m typing kind of fast, I might have missed it.
I’m sorry you feel I was trying to call you a liar, which is not at all what I was trying to do. I was calling the information, false, questioning where you got the information. See my wording at the end of that quote? I was asking where you got that information.
Secondly, I was gone for much of the afternoon and too busy this morning, after I did a bit more study. I took another one of my Greek Bible’s and looked at the wording in it. It was very similar, but still different, from what Gem posted, which would line up to what you were saying.
a.b.e. stated: The translators put it there in the English because they saw verse 22 as a continuation of the thought in verse 2 this is what I was referring to, a.b.e., my Greek New Testament has it in the manuscript, not in English, in Greek. The English has it, but so does the Greek. However, as I stated above, my other Greek Bible does not have it….so……I need to do a bit more study on manuscripts, I have forgotten the details.
Again, sorry that my quick reply came across as calling you a liar, it was your information I was questioning. Please forgive me.
Kelly
a.b.e.,
I just replied to your first posting directed at me, before you posted this last posting. Since comments are held up, before posting, I don’t know when you will see either of my postings.
Again, I’m sorry for making you feel as if I was calling you a liar.
Again, do you have that link? I just looked again and I don’t see one.
Thank you,
Kelly
Okay, I really need to start getting ready for church, but I will pop in here for a second just to address one thing that Kelly said (I think it would take me a week to address all the other posts…I honestly wasn’t expecting the avalanche when I first posted).
I REALLY am happier than I have ever been in my life. I guess people are going to want to believe what they want no matter what I say, but it the honest truth.
It’s a little odd to me that perfect strangers on the internet are judging that I can’t possibly be happy despite what I say. How in the world can anyone know that?
I have the most precious, perfect God who is absolutely everything to me. I am just crazy about Him. If you took a scale with good and bad on opposite sides and EVERYTHING in my life was one the bad side, with Jesus Christ being the only thing on the other, the scale would still tip to GOOD. He is that wonderful!
There is a reason countless Christian martyrs have gone to their deaths singing praises to the Lord and rejoicing. It is because they had a God who was greater than any pain, even the pain of death. And they knew that once this life was over, they were going to be in His glorious presence forever.
THAT is why I am happy. Because I know and love Jesus Christ. He is the love of my life, the Anchor of my soul, and the Rock upon which I ride out the most raging storms.
I wouldn’t trade Him for anything…not the perfect life, the perfect marriage…NOT FOR ANYTHING!
Yes, I am happier than I have ever been in my life because I have a God who never changes no matter what may change in my life. I am in love with my life because I am in love with the Lord!
Okay…I am going to be late to church! But I just had to say that. Please don’t place your own perceptions on me on how I should feel or do feel!
–Amy
You have to look at either UBS4 or NA27 Greek text. But I haven’t found them online, although many online interlinears also don’t include “submit” in verse 22. The newer interlinears books also don’t include “submit” in verse 22. But some of the older ones (meaning 15 years or older) do contain submit in verse 22.
Here’s information on another text in which submit is not in verse 22.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_46
Amy,
that’s great. Truly, wonderfully, great. Please just extend the exact same courtesy to all the other posters who have said they are happy in their lives.
aimai
Kelly,
I’m going to find you the references where I first learned about this.
If you took a scale with good and bad on opposite sides and EVERYTHING in my life was one the bad side, with Jesus Christ being the only thing on the other, the scale would still tip to GOOD.either you’ve never experienced such a situation in real life and therefore don’t know what an immense pain that would be, or you’re knee-deep in it without a way out, and have simply found a coping-mechanism that looks like a solution but isn’t.
I sincerely hope it’s the former, and that you will never end up experiencing that situation, because that is EXACTLY what the formerly submissive wives on here are trying to explain to you: when everything in your life is bad, blindly going with it because of Jesus might kill you. or your children. And you and your children deserve better than to suffer for no reason.
On the other hand, you also need to accept that your chosen lifestyle isn’t the only way to find happiness, regardless of whether your interpretation of the bible tells you otherwise
I said the same thing before I realized it was abuse. I believe the term is cognitive dissonance. It makes it very tricky. Some women in QF situations ARE truly very happy. Others are very “happy” because they have shut off their brains in the same way that cult members do.
Amy, I am so glad you feel happy. I don’t think anyone here is trying to take that away from you. The concerns here are more that what you are espousing is very damaging to women who are married to abusive men, and even more than that, to the children who grow up to perpetuate the cycle. Is God glorified when little boys grow up learning how to be a man by watching Daddy boss Mommy around, treating her with disrespect and disdain, and punishing her when she doesn’t perform to his expectations? Is God glorified when little girls grow up watching Mommy say yes to Daddy all the time, learning that being a wife means having no rights except for those that your husband gives you, having no right to have any personal boundaries?
How do these things glorify God?
Those who advocate for marital hierarchy should do so WITH awareness that their message MUST include that submission to abuse is NOT what is being advocated, nor is husbandly leadership godly when it is hyper-controlling and disrespectful.
Perhaps you do this and I’ve completely misunderstood. If so, I certainly do apologize. But if not, I caution you to be very careful when you promote marital hierarchy without certain caveats.
The Bible has a lot to say about those who abuse those in their care, and none of it is pretty. (Look up injustice if you question this and see how God feels about those who refuse to fight for justice for those under the authority of abusive people).
The last thing the Church should be doing is propping up abusers, but yet often the conservative church is guilty of that very thing, by preaching marital hierarchy without adequate cautionary advise towards those who are abusive or being abused.
Molly
Thanks, a.b.e., I will look forward to seeing your information.
Kelly
“either you’ve never experienced such a situation in real life and therefore don’t know what an immense pain that would be, or you’re knee-deep in it without a way out, and have simply found a coping-mechanism that looks like a solution but isn’t”–Jadehawk
In other words, it doesn’t matter what I say. People are just going to put words in my mouth, so to speak.
Jesus Christ is not a “coping mechanism”. He is the Lord…the one I gave my life to and the one whom I love more than anything.
Honestly, this whole discussion has been quite an eye opener, to say the least. As a fundamentalist Christian, I’m always the one painted as being close-minded and judgmental. But that’s exactly what I’ve seen in this discussion…peope not listening to a word I’m saying but projecting their own prejudices and bigotries onto me.
My whole point in posting in the first place was to point out that women (and families) truly CAN be happy in the QF/P lifestyle. But all you supposedly open-minded folk can’t seem to get that into your closed minds.
I’m sorry if that seems harsh. I’m not really mad…just exasperated. I’ve never come up against people who are so unwilling to accept another point of view! And that’s coming from a “fundie”!
I truly wish you all the best, especially Laura and Vyckie. You both seem like very genuine and kind ladies, and I can’t help but think we’d get along just fine “in real life” were we to meet. I hope you didn’t feel I was belittling either of your experiences by sharing my own. As I said in my first post, we’re all different. I am not going to begrudge you your right to live as you wish and to follow your own path.
–Amy
Molly writes: I am currently in a situation where I’m not sure what to do. My husband is swearing he has changed. I am looking at a dismal financial future if I leave him for good…five kids…eleven years of no job experience becuase I was a stay-home homeschool mom…or I can try again…even though my gut tells me that the things that are wrong with him are so deep that I’m not sure they are “fixable.” I don’t know anything about you besides what I have read here, and a little bit of your blog . . . but I would go with what your gut says. In the meantime, I hope you are talking to lawyers and finding out about options. If there’s any justice in our justice system, your husband will surely be required to pay child support. And you’re obviously an intelligent woman (and a wonderful writer!) – I’m sure you’d be an asset to any employer.
The discussion for this post has been moved over to our new NLQ forums: http://nolongerquivering.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=duggarsNo further comments on this post will be accepted here ~ please go to the forums. Thank you
Kelly,
This is for you. It’s about the word submit not being in Eph. 5:22 in P46. There is other information on this issue also but this is the easiest for me to give you at this time. (I’m in the middle of the a project on Mexico I have to hand in on Saturday and don’t have as much time as I would like to give you on this. But if I do have more time I will get you more resources.)
http://powerscourt.blogspot.com/
Here’s a quote off this website:
If “submit” is not in verse 22 then verse 22 must be closely linked to verse 21, which says “submit to one another.”
a.b.e. ~ please follow the link in the post above to continue this discussion on our new NLQ forums. Thanks!