Category — 3 ~ NLQ FAQs

Jonathan W. Rice (jwr)

In late 2009, I learned that a journalist had written a book about the Quiverfull movement.[1]  I ordered the book and also discovered an online forum for survivors and refugees who’d fled from it (No Longer Quivering).  As far back as 1989, I’d known several families who fit the description but could never really understand their rationale.  I hoped the NLQ forum and the book might shed some light on their beliefs. I was not disappointed. 

In mid-February 2010, a thread title on the forum caught my eye: How did you get yourself into this mess?  The author, a female refugee from the movement, was wondering how she and so many others could have fallen for it in the first place.  After reading it, I again realized how closely the QF/P movement intersects with mainstream evangelicalism and fundamentalism; and how easily I too could have been recruited, given the wrong circumstances.

How, one may ask, do people get into such a seemingly bizarre religious movement?  And how had I (in the past) been in danger of being sucked in myself? 

The answer boils down to one simple word: “gradually.” 

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by hopewell

Q: Are the Duggars Quiverfull?

By their own admission, Jim-Bob and Michelle were so “grieved” after reading the information pamphlet in a birth control pill package that they turned their fertility over to God. (“About Us” para.1 See also, Dallas News).  That decision has been the reason for their incredible family size of 19 children.

Recently the media has offered several profiles of just who are “Quiverfull” families.

Increasingly, the presence of such large, ideologically driven families is being documented through the medium of the age: reality TV shows and lifestyle cable channel specials, all of which campily depict Quiverfull life as like regular motherhoood, but amplified – more kids, more laundry, more merriment.  

The most famous of these families, Michelle Duggar and her husband, Jim Bob….  Their fame sprouts primarily from their novelty: in 2008 Michelle Duggar was pregnant with her eighteenth child so far.  ”So far” is a ubiquitous phrase in the movement… that cutely restates a Quiverfull family’s continuing trust in God’s control of the womb.  But such theological underpinnings are glossed over to make room for the novel details of large family life. (Joyce, Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement, pp 138-139).

Does the decision to trust God and not birth control in their family planning alone qualify them as Quiverfull? Yes. Here’s why:

The Duggars wrote:

As conservative Christians, we believe every life is sacred, even the life of the unborn. Due to our lack of knowledge, we destroyed the precious life of our unborn child. We prayed and studied the Bible and found a host of references that told us God considered children a gift, a blessing, and a reward. (FAQ #2 para. 3).           

Among that “host of Bible references” is Pslam 127, verses 3—5, the verse on which the Quiverfull movement has been built:

Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD:
and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man;
so are children of the youth.
Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them:
they shall not be ashamed,
but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate. (Pslam 127:3-5 K.J.V.)

The website www.Quiverfull.com says “We exalt Jesus Christ as Lord, and acknowledge His headship in all areas of our lives, including fertility.”(para.1). Mary Pride, a founder of the Quiverfull school of thought has written: “Family planning is the mother of abortion,” (Mary Pride, The Way Home, quoted in Newsweek, para. 4).

The Duggars frequently speak out about “causing” Michelle’s miscarriage by the use of birth control pills. They also adhere to Biblically-based abstinence for a set number of days following the birth of a boy or girl. This also supposedly ties in to the teaching of the Institute for Basic Life Principles, the pseudo-Christian organization founded by Bill Gothard. Gothard teaches couples to only have intercourse when the woman is at her “fertile” time each month.

Even breast feeding, which can be a barrier to conception is not to be prolonged for this reason. Back when the couple had a mere 13 children, Jim-Bob was quoted in the New York Times as saying  he had “14 [children], really, since my wife is pregnant and life begins at conception’.” (New York Times, para. 11).  An admission of such beliefs by a politician in a paper with worldwide circulation can only mean one thing: He believes it.

The Quiverfull idea began in the backlash against feminism. Mary Pride’s book The Way Home and a book  A Full Quiver by Rick and Jan Hess are most frequently cited as giving birth to the Quiverfull lifestyle. Both reject birth control. These books, with the Bible, and often the teachings of Bill Gothard’s Institute of Basic Life Principles and materials from the dominionist Patriarch group, Vision Forum, constitute the “How-To” manuals for prospective Quiverfull couples. (Joyce, Nation, p. 11).

The Duggars have been eager and thorough students.

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by Kristen Rosser ~ aka: KR Wordgazer

Q: As a Quiverfull couple, we practice headship and submission to strengthen our marriage and bring glory to God.  But you are saying that Patriarchy hurts the husband and belittles God.  Please explain.

What does “glorify” mean when we’re talking about God?  A simple definition can be found in what we commonly mean when we say a person is “seeking glory.”  It means that person wants the credit for good things that have happened, and to be honored for those things.  To glorify God is to seek glory not for ourselves, but for God– to act in ways that point to God, that give God the credit for good things in our lives and the honor that comes from that.

God receives glory when there are good things in our moral character that give Him credit.  Jesus said, “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”  John 13:35.   1 Peter 2:12 says, “Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles, that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.”

Ways of life that glorify God should result in honor and credit to Him, both in our lives with others, and in our relationship with Him. 

When it comes to our lives with others, it seems clear that if the Bible really teaches and promotes patriarchy– rather than patriarchy simply being an assumption of the cultures of Bible times, reflected but not promoted in the Bible– then following patriarchal roles of male authority and female submission ought to result in the growth of love and moral character in the lives of men and women and in their relationships to one another.  And a patriarchal marriage relationship ought to be the prime place where this takes place.

But is it?

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by Kristen Rosser ~ aka: KR Wordgazer

Q: The Quiverful philosophy is based on a literal interpretation of Scripture which takes God at His Word. Are you suggesting that the Bible should not be taken seriously?

Please consider this question in light of this modern-day parable:

A certain company had been in business for 100 years.  The founder of this company, before he retired, had written a letter to all employees, and had asked that this letter be read aloud every year, at the time of the annual picnic, so that all employees for years to come could know what the founder’s vision was. 

The letter contained a lot of things about the company’s vision and policies, as well as solemn requests never to lose sight of goals like customer service, quality of product, and so on.  One of the policies in the letter was this:

“Every employee who works here will be held to high standards as to the treatment of horses.  Employees must stable their horses in the company stables and make sure the beasts are well rubbed-down and supplied with adequate food and water.  Buggies are to be drawn up neatly in the stable-yard.  Under no circumstances are horses to be left between the buggy shafts all day.”

Because of this letter, the current leaders and employees of this company believed firmly that they were to travel to work by horse– that automobiles were against the founder’s intention, and therefore, the company policy was that if you were caught driving a car to work, you would be immediately fired.   When asked by the city leaders why their company had never replaced its stables with a modern parking facility, the leaders pointed proudly to the plain text of the founder’s letter.  “We are only maintaining the principles upon which this great company was founded,” they said.  “We take our founder at his word, and we are against anyone who doesn‘t take his message seriously enough to follow exactly what it says.”

You may be shaking your head right now and saying, “I get the point of your parable, but that’s not how I read the Bible.  I know some things in it were just for the people back in Bible times.  But you can‘t just toss out whatever you don‘t like as being only cultural!”

Let’s look for a minute at the things we do take as “only cultural” in the sense of not following them as literal commandments to practice today. 

Some of the Apostle Paul’s letters end with what appears to be a direct command — “Greet one another with a holy kiss.“  But most of us don’t kiss other church members when we meet them.  Are we “dismissing” the command as “only cultural”?  Perhaps not.  We do understand the spirit of love with which Christians are supposed to treat one another.  We do greet one another with cordiality and even affection when it‘s appropriate.  But we don’t feel that people need to kiss one another in church the way they did in Paul’s day. 

What about I Tim 2:8 — “I will therefore that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands”?  Most of us will admit that the men in our churches do not lift their hands every time they pray.  Or when I Peter 2:17 exhorts us to “honor the king,” we don’t feel it is against the will of God that we have a President and not a king– even though nowhere in the Bible is it ever mentioned that people should be allowed to vote!

No one actually reads and follows all of the Bible according to its “plain sense” meaning, all the time.  We all pick and choose what we read as meant to be literally practiced today, and what we don’t.  Does this mean that no Christian really takes God at His Word; that no Christian takes the Bible seriously? 

No– it means that we all try our best to read the Bible in a way that honors what we feel it is truly teaching, without getting distracted by the way those teachings were practiced in Bible times.  We may not lift our hands to pray, but we do try to be holy in our prayer lives.  We may not have a king to honor, but we do try to honor our earthly leaders.

The real question is, are the methods we use consistent?   Are we certain we are understanding what the Bible is actually teaching as we read it, so that we don’t miss the actual meaning that God intended to impart? 

Are  we consistently using good principles, principles supported by the Scriptures themselves, in reading the Bible?  For it is only when we consistently and wisely apply godly principles in reading the Bible, that we are truly taking it seriously.

The Scriptures do give us an actual example of a God-inspired apostle reading the Bible in terms of the truth being taught rather than the literal, plain-sense meaning.  In I Corinthians 9:9-14, Paul begins, “For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn.  Doth God take care for oxen?  Or saith he it altogether for our sakes?  For our sakes, no doubt, this is written.”  He goes on to talk about the labor he and the other apostles have labored in, as they spread the gospel, and concludes with, “Even so hath the Lord ordained, that they which preach the gospel should live by the gospel.”

If Paul, inspired by God, could interpret a passage of the Scriptures in terms of the timeless principle that a laborer is worthy of his wages, rather than strictly in terms of how oxen were treated when treading grain, how much more can we do so, in this age where we have tractors rather than oxen– but laborers in the gospel are still worthy of our support?

So how do we do this?  Do the Biblical writings themselves give any more clues as to how they are intended to be understood?

First of all, to understand the Bible as inspired by God is to understand it as one big story of creation, fall, redemption and restoration (both in terms of individual relationship with God, and in terms of community before God).  Every book and passage in the Bible should be looked at as being, in some way, part of this story, with Jesus as the focal point.  Jesus said in John 5:39-40, to Jews who were seeking to kill Him, “[You] search the Scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of Me.  And ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life.”  We must be careful not to think that eternal life is in the Scriptures; it is in Jesus, and in His redemption of mankind.  Everything in the Bible has some part in that great story.

Second, the Scriptures themselves gives us place-and-time markers to help us understand them.  For example, the opening of the Book of Hosea reads like this:  “The word of the Lord that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. . . “  Similarly, the first verse of Philippeans:  “Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi. . . “ 

Almost every book in the Bible begins with words along these lines, and these statements are there for a reason.  They make it plain that the Word of God was first of all God’s word to the specific people mentioned, in a specific location and culture, at a certain point in time.  Those people, those places, times and cultures, need to be taken into account.  Only after we understand how the message would have been understood by those people at those times, can we be certain we‘re not being distracted by things they took for granted.  In the story we started with, the company employees needed to understand that the founder’s letter assumed certain things about the culture, and thus was not giving a command about those assumptions.  In the same way, we need to see that often the writers whom God was inspiring to write a Biblical text, are assuming, and not commanding, things having to do with the cultures they were writing in. 

This means Christians should take the Bible seriously enough to study those ancient times and cultures, and the meanings of words in the original languages, in order to understand what the original audience was intended to understand.  Bible handbooks and dictionaries can help with this.  Christian leaders go to seminaries and consult Bible experts in order to help their congregations with this.  But all of us, expert and layperson alike, are just human.  We all have personal biases that we also need to take into account, to make sure we’re not reading our own preferences into the text as well.   If we understand those biases, it can help us be aware of where we (or even a Bible expert!) might be missing important meanings.

Most of us know to be careful of our own, 21st-century cultural biases when reading the Bible.  But for evangelical Christians, we also need to be aware of the opposite:  many of us have counter-cultural biases!  There may be values in our own modern culture that are actually inspired by God’s truths.  We must be careful not to allow prejudices against the “world” to make us throw the baby out with the bathwater.  Most of us read the Bible today with the understanding that our modern anti-slavery morality is good and Biblical.  All humans belong to their Creator and therefore cannot be owned by one another– even though it wasn’t very long ago that “plain sense” readings of the Bible were used to justify owning slaves.  There may be other moral values of modern culture that are more Biblical than we may realize.   We must try to hold our biases in both directions, out of the way.

In any event, the thing to remember is not to lift a Bible passage out of its original context and make it mean something that looks like “plain sense” to us, but would not have been understood that way by them.

For example, in Genesis 38:8-10, where Onan “spilled his seed on the ground” to avoid raising children that would be considered his brother’s, the ancient Hebrew reader would have seen Onan’s crime as defrauding his brother’s widow of her rights in that culture, and then lying about it.  He only pretended to fulfill his duty, by publicly taking her in marriage– but then privately refused to honor the obligations he had taken on.  Their focus would not have been on birth control; they would have seen the story in terms of fraud, breach of covenant, and deceit.  Onan used birth control as a means to defraud his wife and dishonor his deceased brother.  Further study would be necessary to determine if the means itself is against God’s will.

A third help to interpretation is this:  the writers of the Bible often say things within the Scriptures themselves about their intentions and what we are to understand them as trying to do.  For instance, John 20:31 says that the Book of John was “written that ye might believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life through His name.”  And Paul, going on from where we were reading in I Corinthians 9, speaks at length of what he believes his apostolic calling is all about.  In verse 17 he says it is all because “the dispensation of the gospel has been committed to me.”  He goes on to say that “unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews . . . to them that are without law, as without law. . . I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.”  Just as we would be missing the point of the Book of John if we failed to see how everything in it points to Jesus being the Son of God through Whom we have life, so we would be missing the point of Paul’s letters if we didn’t understand that he intentionally adapted his message to the cultures he was ministering to. 

Paul’s teachings, therefore, about believers’ conduct in the church, in the home and in the outside world, must be viewed as practical advice for functioning in that culture, at that time, as a redeemed community (part of the great story of redemption) in such a way that they would be good witnesses of the gospel to the surrounding cultures in the time they were written.  In the first century, for example, that would mean that slaves were advised not to harm the witness of Christ by rising up against their masters.  But as we discussed earlier, this doesn’t mean Paul was setting forth God’s approval of the institution of slavery itself. 

Paul took certain cultural factors for granted in his letters, and assumed his readers would do the same.  The message, after all, was first of all God’s word to them, not to us.  What were the cultural understandings of his society?  They included slavery, male domination, the rule of Caesars, circumcision as a religious practice of devout Jews only (and never by non-Jews as a simple medical procedure), and so on.  These assumptions should not be turned into commands to us to follow the same cultural practices– any more than the company founder in our parable intended to communicate that his employees were always to use horses.  Rather, within those cultural norms, the factory owner was giving principles of the right treatment of property and animals, as well as policies for order as employees were coming to work.  Paul’s teachings regarding practical Christian living must also be viewed in terms of principles– the chief one, according to Paul, being what will be best for the spread of the gospel in this time and in this place?”

Therefore, Paul said in Titus 2:5 that young wives were to be taught to be “obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”  This was the purpose– Christians going against the accepted cultural norms could actually work against the message God wanted them to preach.  But does it help the Christian message today to insist that the husband-wife relationship is to stay within that first-century cultural norm?  What principle was Paul really teaching?

In fact, Paul, working within and not against the culture of the day, teaches Christian men in Ephesians 5:25-28 that their marriages are still to be different, in that instead of treating wives as property (as was the norm), they are to self-sacrificially love their wives in the same way Christ loved the Church when He died for the Church, “that He might present it to Himself a glorious church. . . (v. 27).“  As Christ laid down His heavenly glory and came down to lift up His church to be glorious, so Paul told husbands they were to lay down the prominence given them by their culture and raise their wives up– not to be restricted and worked to exhaustion, but glorious.

This principle of adaptation and change within cultures that are also changing, is one that is repeated throughout the Bible.  God spoke in one way to Abraham in Abraham’s time, another to Moses when He gave the Law, another to David as king, and another still to the Church.  All the things God spoke fit together in the great story– but each message was adapted for the people who originally heard it, in the times that they heard it.  God accommodates His message so that those He speaks to can understand it within their own frames of reference– and so that He may move them in the direction of the final, complete redemption that is the goal of the great story.  Just because a culture appears in the Bible, does not make it a “Biblical culture,” in the sense of its cultural norms being God’s will for all cultures, for all people, or for all times.  There will be no such culture until we attain final glory.  But all cultures can be changed from within by the timeless truths of love and justice that are the core of the Scriptures.

Finally, the Bible presents itself to us as a group of different kinds of writings.  Some are historical narratives, some are letters, some are poems, some are prophecies.  It’s important to read each kind of writing according to what it is.  In the Psalms, the Book of Job, and the Song of Solomon, for example, we are reading poems or poetic narratives, filled with metaphorical, poetic language.  We need to be sure to read these as poems, and not in the same way we read Paul‘s letters.  Similarly, in the historical narratives, we are presented with people acting in certain ways.  Some of their actions are meant to be examples for us to follow, and others are meant as warnings.  We must follow the clues provided by the narrative voice in the story we are reading, to determine whether to approve or disapprove of the actions of the people in the stories– and we must not read our understandings from other texts into passages that in and of themselves, say nothing in terms of that understanding. 

Abigail, for instance, in I Samuel 25, is presented by the narrator as “a woman of good understanding and beautiful countenance (v. 3),” and David tells her that he believes “the Lord God of Israel . . . sent thee this day to meet me (v. 32).”  There is not a hint anywhere in the story that Abigail is doing wrong in going against her husband’s wishes and taking matters into her own hands, when her husband’s wishes are selfish and sinful and will result in harm to the entire household.  To see Abigail as an ungodly, rebellious woman is to read things into the story that simply are not there.

Each part of the Bible needs to be read on its own, for what it itself says and not for what we think (or have been taught) it’s supposed to say.  Though Christians can and should fit it into its place in the great story as a whole, it must fit as itself, and not as something it is not.  When we read into a part of the Bible, something it doesn’t say, it can twist our idea of the great story as a whole– and the great story of the creation, fall, and redemption of all people of all races, male and female, in Christ, should be taken by Christians very seriously indeed.

If we follow these principles, then we are indeed taking God at His Word– at His real word and not a false idea of it.  We are not dismissing anything as “only cultural’ — but we are taking cultural assumptions into account. 

It may be harder, it may take more work, to understand it this way, but reading the Bible for what God meant it to say, is worth the extra effort.

For more information, see The Blue Parakeet by Scot McKnight and How to Read the Bible for All It’s Worth by Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart. 

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by Vyckie

Q: How can I help my “Quiverfull” friend?

1) How committed is your friend to the QF/P ideals?

2) What level of time/energy investment are you willing and able to take on yourself in order to help your friend?

First of all, just how “into” the quiverfull/patriarchy lifestyle is your friend?

If she is fairly new to the lifestyle (a few years or less), helping her might be as simple as asking her and her husband to read Kathryn Joyce’s book, Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement. Be sure to read the book first in order to really familiarize yourself with all the lifestyle choices and teaching involved so that you can discuss these issues with your friend.

Most QFers get into the lifestyle very gradually ~ each step leads to the next and over a period of many years, the family winds up in an overwhelming lifestyle which nobody would jump right into all at once. One of the great benefits of Joyce’s book is that you get the whole shebang right upfront ~ having a clear idea of where the road her family’s on is headed could very well dissuade your friend from going any further.

If she’s not yet in too deep, introduce your friend to No Longer Quivering and encourage her to read the many, many introductory stories which have been posted on the forum by women and their children who have been seriously damaged because of following this lifestyle.

A few other good websites:

http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/

http://adventuresinmercy.wordpress.com/

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/8….d-abuse,-part-2

http://jensgems.wordpress.com/

http://truewomanhood.wordpress.com/

http://www.equalitycentral.com/

Now ~ that was simple enough, huh?

Before we go on to discuss ways to help a friend who is entirely committed to the ideals of QF/P, let’s consider “important factor #2″ ~ what sort of investment are you willing and able to make in order to really help your friend?

It is essential to seriously consider this question because, truthfully ~ if you are only interested in picking apart your friend’s lifestyle choices and criticizing her for whatever seems to be wrong with the way she’s living ~ you cannot help and, in fact, you will only be contributing to her misery. [Read more →]

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by Vyckie

Q: What is “Quiverfull?”

“Quiverfull” is a convenient, though I believe, somewhat unfortunate term which we’re using at No Longer Quivering to describe a family lifestyle which is growing in popularity among evangelical Christians ~ particularly those who home educate their children.

Quiverfull ~ is the idea that truly godly families will “trust the Lord” with their family planning. Children are viewed as unmitigated blessings (“As arrows in the hand of the mighty man, so are the children of ones youth, happy is the man who hath his quiver full of them”) and as such, the couple is willing to have as many children as the Lord chooses to bless them with. Artificial or chemical birth control such as the Pill or IUDs are equated with abortion ~ the sin of murdering your own offspring. “Natural” birth control such as Natural Family Planning is not actually “natural” because a couple must abstain at the very time of the month when the woman is naturally more desirous of physical intimacy. All methods of “conception control” is considered a lack of trust in God to provide for the “children of the righteous.”

Here’s how I described “Quiverfull” back when I still believed it:

Radically Pro-Life – A.K.A. “Quiverfull,” “allowing the Lord to plan our family,” or “trusting God with our family planning.” It is this ideal which has resulted in our having quite a few more than the average number of children. Why do Christians seek to limit the size of their families through the use of chemical birth control? The truth be told, our reasoning generally parallels that of the abortion culture – additional children will cause inconvenience, financial hardships, lifestyle constraints – all this coupled with the desire to separate sex from procreation. How can the Church expect to speak with any moral authority on the evils of abortion when we ourselves are guilty of the very anti-life values fueled by the family planning mentality? [Read more →]

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By “Dogemperor“

NLQ Frequently Asked Questions

Q. What resources are available for former Quiverfull parents seeking to retain/gain legal custody of their children?

A. The following guest column by NLQ reader, “Dogemperor” addresses this issue in detail:

Firstly, I’d like to thank Vyckie very much for asking me to do this guest column–and a minor caveat or two here: I am not a lawyer, merely someone who grew up in a “New Apostolic Reformation” coercive religious group that now tends to be a heavy promoter of the Quiverfull stuff.

 Step 1: Getting an attorney

 Folks who are leaving a coercive religious group–and especially women leaving Quiverfull groups–do not tend to have the financial resources to afford expensive lawyers. One alternative is to contact your state’s Bar Association–a little-known fact is that most Bars require attorneys to set aside a certain amount of casework a year as pro bono work. The American Bar Association has a list of state and local bar associations here.

 Some communities are better than others in regards to custody cases involving coercive groups. Texas in particular tends to be a bad state in regards to cases involving “Bible-based” groups; on the other hand, many states tend to give preference to women in custody hearings. (Again, this is an area you want to talk to a Real Life Attorney about; they have info on the general history of such cases in your area.)

Parents escaping Quiverfull have a bit of ammunition that is not normally available–namely, that much of what goes on in the Quiverfull movement (and especially the churches promoting it) are what are termed coercive religious groups.

In a number of groups promoting Quiverfull, there is also material promoted that can be stated to be promoting religiously motivated child and spousal abuse. (I myself am preparing a book on the subject, and also working with another author on a separate book on the issue.) Particularly notable co-promoters of Quiverfull and religiously motivated domestic abuse include the Ezzos, Michael and Debbie Pearl, and Bill Gothard.

And yes, don’t be afraid to start your own survivor community! (In a way, this blog in and of itself has already done that! )

“Dogemperor” is a prolific writer/researcher on coercive religious groups within the “religious right” and is presently moderator of one of the largest discussion forums on “religious right” issues on the Internet (Dark Christianity @ Livejournal: http://dark_christian.livejournal.com).

“Dogemperor” has written in particular on the subject of religiously motivated child abuse within “Bible-based” groups…and works to inform people about the parts of the “religious right” that aren’t widely publicised and particularly about the issues people who leave the more coercive “religious right” groups face.

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