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by Calulu

(Editorial note: What follows below is my own personal thoughts on this, no one elses, I’m not speaking for the group, just me. I cannot stay silent to this. If you’re offended or triggered I’m so sorry. Warning if you are triggered by scriptures or the like.)

This morning several of us at NLQ were directed to look at “Women’s Prayer Group Praying That the Women at MRFF All Get Incurable Breast Cancer”  posting on  Free Thought Blogs.

Apparently there is a group of ladies calling themselves Christians who’ve decided to make praying for the death of anyone connected with the Military Religious Freedom Foundation their number one priority. And why is that? Perhaps because the MRFF is a watchdog organization that keeps the the Dominionist evangelical Christians in the military from discriminating, harassing or intimidating people that believe or don’t believe differently than them. Yes, the MRFF protects the religious FREEDOM our country was founded upon. Oh how very evil!

When I first read through it my immediate response was what the hell? What. The. Hell. Is. This … well you know the word. I felt like going all nasty dung-throwing rantiness on it. But I get the sense that’s sort of what they’re looking for so that this group can justify their own nastiness with a ‘See, see how EVIL they are!!!’. I wanted to throw up my hands and shout “WTF!”

I have to laugh and agree with both Chris Rodda on Free Thought Blogs and Leah Burton of POLITICUSUSA about how completely UNChristian these women are. I also want to know if in the eyes of the Lord does spelling count when issuing imprecatory death prayers. They’ve been sending around an email spelling out the names of people they are praying to be stricken with breast cancer along with some very, um, interesting spelling. Below is the email:

“Mickey Wienstien, we called you on the weekend to advice you that our womens prayer circle at our church will be ending your wickedness against Christ Jesus and his anointed of the USA in our military. In America which is Jesus’ country we can pray all we want for anything we want. you hung up on us and were rude to our leader. but will that stop us or Christ Jesus? No it will not and never could have, wicked Mickey. Our prayer circle has never failed to acheive our hosts granting of the scripture we pray. for direct intervention against you as you are a true demon to America. Luke 9:1 We will not stop our prayers until you stop the evil you do with Lucifer on a daly basis. Luke 9:1 But not against you Mickey. We know by your internet site and your book who it is to be. Now for our prayer, we pray that the women who work in your MFRR and the women in your family will befall fast moving breast cancer which can not everbe cured. We pray this for Leah Bruton, and Becki Miller, Patricia Corigan, Chris Rodda, Edie Disler, Vicky Garrison, Kristin Leslie, Melinda Moeton and Joan Slish. And you evil clan too, we pray this for Bonnie Wiensten and Amanda and Amber Wienstein and the woman lawyers Cariline Mitchel and Katherin Ritchy and all women of all who work at with for Military Freedom Against Religon Foundation. know that we pray and pray hard all the days until you stop your destruction of our American army and accept Christ Jesus as Lord and join His army.”

Guess none of them ever read Luke 6:27 through 36 or they’d know that you’re supposed to bless your enemies, pray for them and do good to them. Or are they just ignoring that part of Luke because it doesn’t line up with their personal agenda? You cannot have it both ways, either you love the Lord and seek to keep His word or you aren’t really Christians because you don’t even follow what you say you believe.

Also, Luke 9:1 that they cite in their email has nothing to do with Lucifer or their prayer circle or America. What is says “When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases,” I seriously doubt any of them are part of the Twelve. Driving out demons and curing diseases is also very diametrically opposed to praying for disease to kill someone. It’s emotional murder, harboring the spirit of murder as surely as pointing a gun and pulling the trigger. The desire is there.

Actually the only real thing that their email does expose is the condition of their hearts, that they don’t have love in their hearts, that they’ve chosen curses instead of blessings. Chose today, blessings or curses. Pretty easy to see what they’ve chosen. I’d be curious to see what the outcome in their own lives will be in six months or a year as a result of their choice to curse. One of the things I’ve learned in my years as believer and before that, be very careful what you wish on other people because the universal law of reciprocity tends to bring that thing you’re wishing on others straight back to you. When you pray for judgement on others or bad things then you’re telling the universe or God that it’s alright with you to release the same thing on you. It never ends well. Better to forgive, forget and live in peace, move on. Or you might find yourself eating a rubber biscuit. The kind you throw at someone else to hurt them, it bounces off the wall and lands right in your big old trap to poison you.

Karma can be a big old nasty bitch. I’m almost afraid for these ladies because what they’ve released in the spiritual realm can’t be a good thing. Look what happened when someone cursed King David in the Psalms 109:28 “Let them curse, but You bless; When they arise, let them be ashamed, But let Your servant rejoice” David knew enough of who he was and who the Lord is that he asked God to bless him and to outdo the curse and then turned the curse back on those that uttered it.

I remember back when I was working for a big computer company in the Virginia Technology Corridor I came to work one day just in time to see people huddled fearfully in groups here and there in the parking lot. Spray painted on the side of the building were upside down crosses, 666 and the words “Satin Rules”! Someone had thoughtfully placed a big black Hefty bag filled with dead chickens on the main door step, right smack dab on the welcome mat. Several of my coworkers were shaken up by all of this because dead chickens left on the steps of a building are a curse of death on the occupants in black arts and voodoo. One lady started crying, refusing to enter the building, thinking she was going to die. I had to point out to her that it was likely it was just one of our loonier disgruntled former coworkers that did this and that they couldn’t be much of a Satan worshiper if they couldn’t even be bothered to spell their master’s name right. It was strictly a tactic to make people fearful and fall into a self-fulfilling prophesy.

This is just more of that I think. Silly ecclesiastical posturing in an attempt to sow fear.

To those praying for death I have only to say chose carefully, blessings or curses this day. I would hope you’d chose blessings.

PS. Reminds me of this song

Discuss this post on the NLQ forum. Comments are also open below.

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'Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment' by Janet Heimlich

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For those readers who are interested in hearing an explanation of the Quiverfull philosophy and lifestyle, “Children Are a Blessing” by Moore Family Films is available free online through April 30th.

Children are a Blessing from Moore Family Films on Vimeo.

Children are a Blessing from Moore Family Films on Vimeo.

We would love to feature your personal story on No Longer Quivering. Please submit what you have to say via our submissions form.

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'Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment' by Janet Heimlich

‘Quivering Daughters‘ by Hillary McFarland

‘Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement‘ by Kathryn Joyce

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by Libby Anne

In Part 1 I discussed the definition of emotional incest, in Part 2 I discussed its relationship with Christian Patriarchy, and in Part 3 I pointed out just how easy it is to slip into the harmful emotionally incestuous dynamics (the “daddy’s girl” effect). I am now going to turn to the problems and pain emotional incest causes.

But first, I want to note that emotional incest can happen in any family (not just one involved in Christian Patriarchy) and that it can happen with sons as well as with daughters. In focusing as I have on daughters, and also on Christian Patriarchy, I have of necessity left a lot out.

Emotional incest causes a multitude of problems, but I’m only going to address the three I see as most significant: first, it creates a relationship triangle between the parents and the child; second, it makes the child responsible for the parent’s well-being; and third, getting out of this situation can have the same effects as a really, really nasty breakup.

A relationship triangle

In the case of father/daughter emotional incest, a sort of relationship triangle forms between the father, the daughter, and the mother in which the mother can become shut out. The father can find affirmation and emotional fulfillment in his daughter rather than in his wife, and the father can make his daughter, rather than his wife, his partner in plans, dreams, and hopes for the future.

In Christian Patriarchy, the husband is in charge and the wife acquiesces. In this sort of a situation, it is not uncommon for the husband to have very little respect for his wife’s intellect and judgement. Furthermore, wives in patriarchal relationships aren’t always completely happy with their situations, even if they believe it’s what God has commanded, and this can lead them to chafe at being under their husbands’ authority and to nag or resist in little ways.

Daughters in Christian Patriarchy, however, were generally raised with these ideas from the very beginning. Thus the friction that may be present in the parents’ relationship will often not be present in the relationship between the father and the daughter, and the daughter will instead adore her father and think of him as perfection itself. Furthermore, a daughter can offer her father the chance to shape and create his ideal woman, complete with intellect and the heartfelt adoption of his goals and dreams. (Think of the Botkin sisters.)

The result is that the father may make his daughter his confidant, and prefer to bask in his daughter’s adoration than to face his wife’s discontent. In this way the daughter can come between her parents, and even replace her mother as her father’s confidant and as his partner in dreaming and planning for the future.

An unfair responsibility

Next, emotional incest results in the child feeling responsible for the well-being of the parent, and in the parent’s well-being becoming dependent on the continued affirmation of the child. The result is that the child becomes stuck. The child must continue to feed the emotional needs of the parent, or else risk hurting the parent and feeling responsible for doing so. The ability to destroy the parent is placed in the child’s hands.

I’ve written before that my father carefully shaped me into his perfect ideal, and that when I broke out of his mold and started forging my own way, it was like I suddenly became broken and ruined in his eyes. I sometimes think that I was like a perfectly chiseled statue that came to life and, by moving out of the pose I had been set in, dashed the hopes and dreams of the craftsman who created me.

Watching my father withdraw into his shell because I questioned his beliefs and refused to conform to his ideal was one of the most painful experiences in my life. Watching the horrible pain I had caused him by stepping out of his mold and refusing to be his ever-adoring confidante was quite simply excruciating. Looking back, I’m not sure how I did it.

For a time, I felt incredibly guilty about the pain I had caused. But the conformity that was required of me was simply too much to acquiesce to, and at some point I’d gone through enough pain myself that I just wanted out at all costs, regardless of what shattered pieces I left behind. I just needed to get out on my own, to shut the door to what was behind, and to have a fresh start. And this is exactly what I did.

What I felt most guilty about was leaving my mother and siblings with the aftermath of the pain my flight had caused my father. I felt bad that they had to pick up the broken pieces and clean up the mess I had so unwittingly helped create. But somewhere deep inside of me I knew that my father’s emotional well-being should never have been in my hands in the first place, and that what had happened was not my fault.

Going through a breakup

In order to form my own beliefs and opinions and choose my own life path, I had to break up with my dad. I realized recently that the dynamic between my father and I when I return home is, I would imagine, very like the dynamic between a couple who were together for years and then experienced a very nasty breakup. There’s the knowledge of what you used to have together, but also the memory of the pain of the breakup and what led up to it.

Of course, for this analogy to truly work you have to remember that the relationship that was broken off was not one between two equal adults. Imagine a relationship in which an older partner feeds off the adoration of a younger partner and requires conformity and obedience. Then, when the younger partner resists this obedience and conformity, a long and painful breakup ensues, beset by emotional manipulation and attempts by the older partner to get the younger partner back by whatever means possible.

I adored my father so much growing up that I frequently said I wanted to marry someone just like him in every way. I literally thought my dad was perfect – as in, I thought this when I was 17, not just when I was 7. I gave my dad my heart and practically worshiped him. And then I lost him. The moment I started questioning the beliefs he had taught me, he closed himself off from me. Our relationship ended that day, and all that remained was anger, manipulation, and guilt. I was left to grieve the loss of my father while wading through the storm of pain that was raining down on me.

It’s funny, the purity culture teaches that girls are supposed to give their hearts to their fathers for safekeeping. This way the girl will not give her heart away to some boy and have it broken, or so the argument goes. There is never any consideration that a girl’s father might break her heart.

Conclusion

This post isn’t all that long, but I’ve nevertheless written and rewritten it a dozen times. This subject is difficult to discuss because it still hurts, somewhere down inside of me, and because remembering the pain is not pleasant. And really, I’ve just scratched the surface: emotional incest manifests itself in many different ways and with many different variations.

I think it is important to address this problem in order to bring healing to those who have suffered through it and hope to those who are still dealing with it, and I also think it’s important to point out that the possibilities for emotional incest to occur are magnified in families who practice Christian Patriarchy, and also in fundamentalist and evangelical families (and Christian homeschooling families) in general.

Discuss this post on the NLQ forum. Comments are also open below.

Libby Anne grew up in a large evangelical homeschool family highly involved in the religious right. College turned her world upside down, and she is today an atheist, a feminist, and a progressive. She blogs about leaving fundamentalist and evangelical religion, her experience with the Christian Patriarchy and Quiverfull movements, the problems with the “purity culture,” the intricacies of conservative and religious right politics, and the importance of feminism. Her blog is Love, Joy, Feminism

We would love to feature your personal story on No Longer Quivering. Please submit what you have to say via our submissions form.

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'Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment' by Janet Heimlich

‘Quivering Daughters‘ by Hillary McFarland

‘Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement‘ by Kathryn Joyce

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by Sierra

[Editors' note: At the time of writing, Libby Anne and Sierra were unaware of the controversy surrounding Hugo Schwyzer. The discussion of his critique of emotional incest is not an endorsement of Schwyzer by NLQ.]

My last two posts, and indeed all my thinking on the subject has led me to some conclusions about the ways that Christian Patriarchy and purity culture enable and even celebrate emotional incest. The following are the cliff notes:

Christian patriarchy turns marriage from a relationship to an institution, effectively reversing the historical trend from business partnerships and heir insurance to bonds between two free agents based on love. Evangelical culture says that marriage takes three: you, your spouse, and God. It also promotes self-denial and the sublimation of one’s own desires to those of Christ. Therefore, any two evangelical Christians should be able to marry each other and have a godly, fulfilling marriage, given enough work and prayer. Purity culture says that chemistry and personality don’t matter. What matters is following the Word of God. Husbands and wives should love each other because it’s commanded in God’s Word to do so; loving his wife is a husband’s “first ministry.” Similarly, a wife “ministers” to her husband by submission and love. The core of marriage in Christian patriarchy is the commitment to be loyal to God and to the marriage, not attachment to the person of the spouse. This is why evangelical courtships are more focused on purity than the prospective partners getting to know each other personally; what matters is getting to the altar without regrets. The love in marriage flows from commitment rather than the other way around, mirroring the logic of arranged marriage.(Note: Most evangelical Christians do acknowledge the importance of an emotional bond between the bride and groom that develops before the wedding day. Most evangelical Christians do want their children to marry people whom they find attractive, companionable and fun. If you are one of these Christians, you’re not the one I’m critiquing. (Congratulations! You’re normal!) What I do find problematic is the branch of evangelical-fundamentalist Christianity led by people like Bill Gothard, Matthew Chapman (who famously didn’t ask his wife to marry him), Doug Wilson, Jonathan Lindvall, et al. who expect young people to marry with hardly any knowledge of each other, rigid parental oversight and laundry lists of abstract virtues rather than personality traits in mind.)

The institutionalization of marriage in Christian patriarchy leads to relationships based on order, hierarchy and duty rather than affection. Husbands are commanded to be leaders of their wives. Wives are commanded to submit. Husbands are commanded to love. Wives are commanded to reverence. Marriage is reduced to performance of a gender role. Although individuals frequently subvert this, the ideal is that husband and wife will relate to one another as master and subordinate, with two distinct spheres of duty.

Women who must obey their husbands turn to their sons for more equal partnerships. Most evangelical-fundamentalists do not place the son’s authority higher than the mother’s, though some do. A mother can share interests with her son, disagree with him, choose their mutual activities and challenge her son in ways that she cannot challenge her husband. This promotes emotionally incestuous mother-son relationships in which the son becomes his mother’s main source of emotional support.

Husbands whose wives are constrained with childbearing and homemaking turn to their daughters for emotional affirmation. Wives are required to respect, obey, and love their husbands. Daughters are, too, but their devotion and admiration are more often the natural results of kind parenting than coercion or dogmatic instruction. (I fully acknowledge that many daughters don’t love their fathers, because their fathers are distant, abusive, etc. I am one of those daughters. However, a daughter whose father raises her kindly will usually love him without hesitation.) A daughter’s love is more spontaneous, and hence may feel more genuine than a wife’s love. A daughter is also less inhibited by years of conflicts, submission and moral instruction. She is simply younger and (usually) more enthusiastic. As a child, she is also more inclined to want to please her father – especially as that trait is cultivated in girls. As Libby Anne also points out, a daughter is more susceptible to her father’s influence, and has the potential to be molded into the ideal partner.

Christian patriarchy cultivates father-daughter emotional incest through purity pledges and purity balls, father-daughter dating, stay-at-home daughterhood, “practice” homemaking and the courtship process that gives fathers veto power over a girl’s relationships. Daughters are explicitly taught that they should submit to their fathers as their “heads” until they marry, that the father-daughter relationship is practice for marriage, that fathers should treat their daughters the way they want their future husbands to treat them (as opposed to being an example by treating their wives the way they want their daughters treated). With your father “guarding your heart,” you can hardly form relationships that don’t include, or indeed center on, him.

Purity culture limits young people’s access to one another through courtship and sex-segregated activities.This means that contact between the sexes is extremely formal, and many children of large families form their deepest bonds with their parents and siblings. This can stunt their ability to make friends or find partners on their own, further cementing parental control over spousal choices. It also limits children’s access to other families that could show them alternatives to the kinds of relationships that exist within their own families, leading them to think that their own family dynamic is “normal” even if it isn’t.

Quiverfull families normally rely on the eldest children (usually daughters) to parent younger siblings. This can artificially elevate the eldest children to the status of co-parents or partners for their parents. Normally, emotional incest occurs between a parent and his or her eldest child (though there are undoubtedly exceptions).

This is not to say that only patriarchal Christians are vulnerable to emotional incest. It is, however, to point out that some central tenets of Christian patriarchy and quiverfull enable those relationships to flourish unchecked. The results, when they are terminated, can be devastating for both parents and children. These relationships can have ripple effects that prevent children from forming healthy bonds with their own partners in adulthood. In the case of stay-at-home daughterhood, however, this flaw is considered a benefit. If daughters remain at home, serving their fathers, well into their own adulthood, they are treated as success stories. They shouldn’t be.

Discuss this post on the NLQ forum. Comments are also open below.

Sierra is a PhD student living in the Midwest. She was raised in a “Message of the Hour” congregation that followed the ministry of William Branham. She left the Message in 2006 and is the author of the blog  the phoenix and the olive branch

We would love to feature your personal story on No Longer Quivering. Please submit what you have to say via our submissions form.

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by Libby Anne

[Editors' note: At the time of writing, Libby Anne and Sierra were unaware of the controversy surrounding Hugo Schwyzer. The discussion of his critique of emotional incest is not an endorsement of Schwyzer by NLQ.]

In Part 1 I looked at the definition of emotional incest and in Part 2 I looked at how integral emotional incest is to Christian Patriarchy, but in this segment I want to look at how easy it can be for even ordinary families to be sucked into (admittedly, less intense) patterns of emotional incest.

I recently came upon an article called “Princesses, Princes, Daughters, and Dads: Against Emotional Incest.” The author explains his own experiences as the father of a young daughter and the measures he plans to take to ensure that he does not fall into the trap of emotional incest. It was such a good article that I’m going to quote from it at length and then finish with some discussion.

Becoming a parent for the first time in one’s forties has myriad advantages, not least that one has had the opportunity to watch a great many of one’s peers “do it all first.” And I’ve seen, a time or nine, an unhealthy triangulation occur with dads, moms, and their daughters. While the dangers of physical incest and abuse are real, there’s a kind of emotionally incestuous dynamic I’ve witnessed between fathers and daughters, one in which dads seek from their daughters the validation and affirmation that they feel they are entitled to, but are not receiving from their wives.

Little children adore their parents. Really, it’s a lovely thing to come home each day and be welcomed, as I invariably am, with gales of excited laughter and delight. My daughter’s love is an impressive thing to feel, especially as she’s gotten better recently at wrapping herself around my neck and squeezing me tight. No matter what has transpired during the day, no matter what I’ve said or done (or failed to say or do), Heloise seems to adore me….

Of course, spouses aren’t the same as children. My wife loves me, a fact of which I blessedly have no doubt. But she most certainly doesn’t have me a on pedestal, doesn’t think I’m flawless, and doesn’t greet me with shrieks of joy everytime I walk into the house. Eira engages with me as a partner, and she challenges me and pushes me and asks me for things; I do the same for her….

Here’s the thing: I’ve seen men play their daughters against their wives, mistakenly believing that the way in which their daughters see them (as heroic and perfect) is the way that their spouses ought to as well. If a man hasn’t done his “work”, he may find himself looking at his daughter, gazing up at him with adoration, and he may start (resentfully) to contrast his girl’s fierce and uncomplicated devotion with the somewhat less enthusiastic reception he may be getting from his overworked and exhausted wife. In most cases, this doesn’t mean the papa will turn to his daughter sexually, … [b]ut he may find himself relying more and more on the affirmation he gets from his adoring baby girl.

…a great many dads (and it wasn’t until I became a father to a baby girl myself that I realized how common this was) start to rely more and more on the simple intensity of their daughter’s love rather than doing the much more difficult work to remain connected with their wives. I’m certainly not saying every father of a daughter does this, but it is common — and if you ask the mothers of daughters, as I have, you’ll hear plenty of anecdotes about this.

Plenty of daughters grow up with a sense that they are somehow responsible for taking care of their fathers emotionally, for being the good and understanding woman in his life (as opposed to the mother/wife figure, who is invariably cast as judgmental and cold.) To do this to a daughter is child abuse, and I am determined not only not to do it myself, but to be bolder at calling out other fathers of daughters when I see the signs of what can only be called emotional incest.

Heloise may or may not choose to be a princess as she gets a bit older. But in her little games, I will not play the part of the prince. I’m a father, and that is something utterly and wonderfully different. And if I need validation, I need to go and get it from my equal, my peer, and my partner — the one who will make me earn that validation, as she should.

I quote from this article both to point out how common emotional incest is and to emphasize that emotional incest is not simply a result of Christian Patriarchy. Rather, emotional incest can occur in any family. And I think this article moved me especially because it sounded so very, very familiar.

What Christian Patriarchy does do, though, is institutionalize this dynamic. It takes the problematic father/daughter relationship this author describes and glorifies it. While the author here sees it for the problem it is, Christian Patriarchy holds it up as the ideal – and then takes it even a step further.

And this article also points out the problem I pointed out in the previous segment: father/daughter emotional incest creates a triangle between the father, the mother, and the daughter, and can result in the father essentially shutting the “troublesome,” “demanding,” or “cold” wife for the warm love and affection of his adoring daughter.

And I’m sitting here with emotion flowing through my body because I know the pain this dynamic causes. I’ve experienced it. I am going to write one more segment in this series, and that one will be the hardest. Writing this series – and doing the internet research needed to do so – has opened wounds and rendered me raw. It hurts. But it’s also how we heal. I can’t move forward without admitting the past, without confronting the past, acknowledging that it happened, and staring it down.

I’m writing this series even though it’s hard because, well, someone needs to write it. Someone needs to talk about it. Someone needs to put this out into the open. Until the problem is seen for what it is, the pattern will just keep repeating.

Discuss this post on the NLQ forum. Comments are also open below.

Libby Anne grew up in a large evangelical homeschool family highly involved in the religious right. College turned her world upside down, and she is today an atheist, a feminist, and a progressive. She blogs about leaving fundamentalist and evangelical religion, her experience with the Christian Patriarchy and Quiverfull movements, the problems with the “purity culture,” the intricacies of conservative and religious right politics, and the importance of feminism. Her blog is Love, Joy, Feminism

We would love to feature your personal story on No Longer Quivering. Please submit what you have to say via our submissions form.

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by Millipede

(Editor’s Note: Millipede has been recounting her history of how she came to join a patriarchal lifestyle on our forum starting about six months ago. She’s graciously agreed to allow her writing to be reposted here. We thank her for that!)

To tell it in a nutshell; my husband and I became part of a reactionary milieu, joining a “movement” which addressed various issues such as gun rights, survival ism and so on. I still hold my beliefs pertaining to these issues and so this is not an indictment of “right wing extremism”. In fact those early years were wonderful and I would gladly join such a group.

I was not new to such views. Years before I even met my husband, I had been active in various causes. In the intervening years I had become inactive and so when my when my husband and I started exploring various issues I felt joy at becoming politically active again.

I am giving background, not getting up on a soap box.

Anyway, the road to patriarchy was at first slow. Even in right wing “extremist” circles there is quite a diversity of beliefs concerning patriarchy. Also, there are some who may on the surface appear to endorse patriarchal belief systems, but are actually pretty mild if not “enlightened” in their views and treatment of women. There are even some who could be called feminists. Again certain causes attract all sorts of people. It was sort of our version of the “popular front” so to speak.

In years past I had rubbed shoulders with the ultra patriarchal crowd from time to time. However I was always turned off by their views and always kept them at arms length, preferring instead to associate with those who were not so hung up about women. There were plenty of channels to travel that did not lead to the patriarchal camp.
Becoming active again several things were different. Ironically, this was a milder crowd, not near as “out there” on certain views. More importantly, I was no longer single, but was involved as the wife of a spouse who was in the course of searching out his views. This should have been something great, but little did I know.

My husband and I became involved in what one might call a patriot group. During that time I met a lot of wonderful people, many of whom I still call friends this day. It was an exciting time, I was so happy that my husband who at first was reluctant to become active was involved alongside me.

During the next few years we saw factions split off, people go different ways, new people join. Such was the life in such a group. In the later years, not long before the group dissolved, we started a close friendship with a particular member. This gentleman came from a conservative Christian background. Intelligent and kind he was not only exploring political issues, but was on a theological journey. At the time my husband was not religious. In fact, he had not been in church since he as a teenager, having rebelled against a conservative religious upbringing.
In the group my husband heard much about restoring America as a Christian nation even if it was in a loose and undefined sense. To most Patriots, it was more about the acknowledgment of America being a Christian nation coupled with the idea that Christians should be allowed to worship and serve God without government interference. It often went no further than that.

As the friendship grew we became friends with a circle of Christians that we met through this man. Most had not been involved with the Patriot movement, but were friends of his who were dissatisfied with the churches of their childhood and were searching for answers. They were decent and kind people and we “clicked” as a group. My husband’s interest in the Bible was rekindled and he rediscovered his Faith. I was overjoyed at first. What better a way them for husband and wife to make a journey side by side.

The Patriot group imploded in time, while most members formed small groups, we slowly drifted away, seeing less of them. A few did hang on the periphery of this circle, also interested in studying the Bible. By that time we had started to regard most Patriot types as somewhat hypocritical; always talking about American being a Christian nation and yet not bothering to go to church or really trying to live by God’s Laws. We thought this more and more as we studied the Bible, discussed various passages and their meanings. We weren’t just mouthing empty platitudes, but were actually trying to live by the Word.

At first our group was a “home church”, meeting at various members’ houses. Our friend dreamed of having a real church building where we could worship together. In time the opportunity for this to happen materialized.
As I stated before These were exciting times, while the Patriot group had been a great start, it was only that-a start. Now, we were concerned with more important things.

It was at this time that other things were becoming apparent, at the time they were only minor disturbances. However, in hindsight, they were a great importance.

Discuss this post on the NLQ forum. Comments are also open below.

We would love to feature your personal story on No Longer Quivering. Please submit what you have to say via our submissions form.

NLQ Recommends ...

'Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment' by Janet Heimlich

‘Quivering Daughters‘ by Hillary McFarland

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by Libby Anne

I’ve been hesitant to write about emotional incest for two reasons: First, it’s too easy for people to think “emotional incest” implies a sexual relationship when it doesn’t, and second, I’ve had some experience with it and drudging that up can be painful. But given how integral emotional incest is to the teachings of Vision Forum and Christian Patriarchy, I’ve decided to devote a few posts to it.

Emotional incest is sometimes also called covert incest. It does not involve actual sexual or physical contact. Rather, it involves an unhealthy relationship between parent and child in which the child serves as a sort of emotional spouse or companion to the parent. Here are a couple definitions, some using the term “covert incest” and others using the term “emotional incest.”

Covert incest occurs when a child plays the role of a surrogate husband or wife to a lonely, needy parent. The parent’s need for companionship is met through the child. The child is bound to the parent by excessive feelings of responsibility for the welfare of the parent. The demand for loyalty to the lonely, needy parent overwhelms the child and becomes the major organizing experience in the child’s development.

Covert emotional incest begins when a person perceives and responds to a family member as a replacement or substitute for a partner.

This form of incest is described as a relationship where a parent turns a child into a partner or confidante that is inappropriate to the child’s age and life experience. Or to put it another way, when a child is manipulated into the role of a surrogate wife or husband by a needy parent. While some refer to this as covert incest, others refer to it as emotional incest.

You get the idea. Emotional incest is essentially when the relationship between a parent and child becomes like that between two spouses, except that given the immaturity of the child the relationship is one-sided and the parent feeds off the child emotionally while the child ends up feeling responsible for the well-being of the parent.

I think it’s important to remember that there are different degrees of emotional incest. It’s not an all or nothing kind of thing. Sometimes emotional incest is extremely severe and debilitating, and other times it’s more moderate and can almost go unnoticed. Regardless of its intensity, though, emotional incest is harmful and unhealthy.

In Part 2, I’m going to look at the Botkin sisters and reveal that emotional incest is essentially mandatory in Christian Patriarchy, and in Part 3 I’ll point out that emotional incest is in no ways limited to the more extreme world of Christian Patriarchy, and discuss the “daddy’s girl” effect. Finally, in Part 4, I’ll address my own experiences and the pain and harm emotional incest causes.

Discuss this post on the NLQ forum. Comments are also open below.

Libby Anne grew up in a large evangelical homeschool family highly involved in the religious right. College turned her world upside down, and she is today an atheist, a feminist, and a progressive. She blogs about leaving fundamentalist and evangelical religion, her experience with the Christian Patriarchy and Quiverfull movements, the problems with the “purity culture,” the intricacies of conservative and religious right politics, and the importance of feminism. Her blog is Love, Joy, Feminism

She’s graciously allowed us to cross post this from her blog.

We would love to feature your personal story on No Longer Quivering. Please submit what you have to say via our submissions form.

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by Incongruous Circumspection

In Part 1b we listened in as Gothard tried valiantly to describe the differing outlooks on life that, according to his understanding, men and women exemplify. It needs mentioning again here that Bill is relying on no practical experience. He has never been married. It makes sense that, being he has propped himself up to be a guru in every area of life, and the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of worshipers at his feet, he would make vast, overarching, easily wrapped up in a square box and neatly tied with a silk bow, conclusions for very complex issues in life. One of those issues is human nature. It cannot be pidgeonholed, no matter how many verses you abuse.

Let’s lean in to hear Bill Gothard describe the perfect cheerleading bear rug – the good wife.

*****

[Be enthusiastic about your husband’s achievements. Sharing his excitement is more important than sharing his work. Your husband needs and wants your faithful, loyal, and enthusiastic support.]

Poor, poor men. We have no self-esteem. If we do something good and a woman is not there to jump up and down, clapping her hands in utter joy, we are spent, and cannot continue on in this life. Even if the woman is exhausted from making meals, doing dishes, washing laundry, cleaning the house, schooling the fourteen children, and otherwise doing everything a stay-at-home perfect wife and mother should be doing, as quoted in a hen-pecked Proverbs 31, if I walk through the door, excited about the penny I found on the street and the subsequent rock candy I was able to buy with it, my wife would be expected to throw her arms around me and give me a thousand kisses, exclaiming her enthusiastic excitement for my success.

All humor and facetiousness aside, the sinister side to Gothard’s quote here just jumps off the page. What does he mean, “more important than sharing his work”? What is “his work”. Does Gothard expect all women to help a man in his career, never having one of her own. The obvious answer to that question is “DUH!”

[Believe in your husband—no matter what.]

Really? Even when he blows the mortgage on gambling? Even when he liquors up before he comes home every night? Even when he follows “godly discipline” as put forth by gurus that train you to severely beat and abuse you children? Even when he treats you like a bear rug? Even when he has an affair with someone just a little hotter than you, with a smaller stomach and non-poofy hair? Even when he goes out with his friends and blows a few Benjamins and then becomes enraged when you bring up the fact that the privilege is not reciprocated? Even when the children begin to fail at homeschooling due to his choice of a curriculum? Even when he is physically, spiritually, mentally, or verbally abusive to you?

Kristine (my hot trophy wife) and I lived this mindset for about half of our miserable marriage. At one point, I lost my job at a dealership where I had been selling cars, just waiting for the next big opportunity to come along. And come along it did, with a glowing job description in the paper – selling Filter Queen vacuum cleaners. Needless to say, I was exuberant after the sales training and she was more than skeptical. Two months, $4000 in debt, and thousands of company lies later, I admitted that she was right. But I was angry at her for even suggesting the possibility that I had made a bad move. She was supposed to support me even to the family’s ruin. Yep. What an immature way to live life.

[Loyalty can be demonstrated only in adversity. A husband needs to know that his wife is committed to him no matter what and that she will look first to him for counsel and direction. Use difficult times to reflect the depth of your commitment to your husband, and do not ask others for counsel without his permission.]

Abuse? Yeah, that’ll fly. “Honey, you’re hitting me. Can I talk to the police?”

[A wife is never supposed to “take over.” In response to pressures within the family or within a marital relationship, a foolish wife will take matters into her own hands. When you intrude into one area of responsibility, even with the “good” motive of meeting urgent needs, your husband will most likely surrender other responsibilities as well. Initially, it may appear that you succeed in fulfilling responsibilities that should be carried out by your husband. However, in the long run, the decision to usurp or ignore your husband’s responsibility to meet those needs will do much more harm than good. (See Proverbs 14:1.)]

You read that correctly. When a man is a loser, or even just simply making a bad decision, the wife who rights the ship is a fool. Why? Because all men are hanging on the edge, holding every bit of responsibility with the tips of their fingers. When they lose one area of responsibility, they are helpless to keep hold of the rest. How fragile are these Gothard lives anyway?

But, the most laughable part of the above quote is the verse Gothard references. What Proverbs 14:1 actually says is:

“The wisest of women builds her house, but folly, with her own hands, tears it down.”

Ok. I’ll give you some time to breath after that laugh. Bill is actually saying the exact opposite of what this verse says. It says that a wise woman builds her house (that seems to me to be pretty much anything and everything to do with living) but the foolish woman, in her own power and individual capacity, has the ability to tear that same house down. Let me throw out an alternative interpretation for Bill Gothard’s benefit here. If a woman does NOT use her wisdom and tell her husband that he is about to make a big mistake, or whatever the scenario, she singlehandedly tears her own house down, not the other way around as Gothard oddly sees it. This is just another example of Bill taking little unrelated snippets of Scripture and using it for his own benefit. We caught him in the cookie jar again.

Men, if you need a woman to zip up your pants after you went potty and lovingly tap you on the shoulder every time you get a boo boo in life, you should seriously consider moving back into your mother’s basement. Your wife is a human being and would appreciate all the same benefits that Bill is saying only you, as a man, should enjoy.

Women, you are free to live a life of independence WITHIN your marriage. It isn’t really that hard. My wife and I screw it up every day and we’re still happy and vibrant. She tells me when I’m a fool and I desperately try to dish it back but have trouble finding fault. I have three private detectives on the case and expect a breakthrough any day now.

In Part 1d, we will finish up the first “Basic Need of a Marriage” for men. We get to talk about the real reason for sex, in Bill Gothard’s eyes, who also, allegedly, has no experience in that..er…exercise.

Discuss this post on the NLQ forum. Comments are also open below.

Incongruous Circumspection

I am a 30 something husband of one and father of 6 dynamic and loud children. My wife and I are still madly in love – at least in my view. My world is exciting, tense, and full of life. I love to write and hope to one day, do it full time. – Incongruous Circumspection

Read all posts by Incongruous Circumspection!

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by Latebloomer

I have a lot of respect for my dad. He’s thoughtful and generous to all of us. His constant reading makes him an interesting and well-informed conversationalist. He makes his life decisions very carefully, yet never looks down on me for making different decisions than him. Instead, he tells me all the time that he loves and misses me, and that he’s proud of who I’ve become. I feel so lucky to have him as my dad.

Unfortunately, we have not always gotten along so well. Less than ten years ago, our relationship had been almost completely destroyed thanks to the authoritarian parenting techniques of the fundamentalist Christian homeschooling culture. Authoritarian parenting forced both of us into roles that we were not at all suited for, with tragic results.

For my dad, authoritarian parenting caused him to see our relationship as a power struggle; maintaining his authority was his biggest responsibility and highest priority. After all, if we were calling the shots in our own lives, we would become self-indulgent and lack internal self-control. That would lead us to more dangerous “worldly” teenage rebellion against our parents and God. So in order not to fail at parenting, my dad had to be hyper-vigilant against giving up power to us kids. What an insane amount of responsibility to put on one person! And how difficult to create a positive relationship with that kind of dynamic: it’s impossible to mandate real respect and love! My dad began to crack under the pressure.

For me as a teen, authoritarian parenting very nearly reduced me to an empty shell of a person. I found that my opinions and emotions were sources of trouble and guilt. Anger or frustration–even just on my face–were signs of disrespect and lack of self-control. Questioning my parents’ decisions or expressing different opinions, even on trivial matters, were signs of rebellion. Even the simple act of lifting my eyebrows could get me in trouble. In order to survive, I had to bury my negative emotions and try to become more passive and less opinionated.

In addition to guarding my facial expressions and speech against “disrespect” and “rebellion”, I also had to hide many positive feelings. My parents’ preferred method of discipline when I was in my teens was to take away privileges. Anything that I had shown happiness or excitement about was a likely target. So, to protect things I cared about, I tried to stay detached. One technique that helped me care less about something was to focus on the negative about it. Unfortunately, it was hard to rekindle my excitement once my negativity had extinguished it, but at least it was easier to deal with the feelings of helplessness and disappointment.

At the worst point in my relationship with my dad, I went for several years without my dad smiling at me even one time. He spent long hours at work or locked in his room and tried to avoid talking to me or looking at me when we passed. But still, every night, my mom made me find him to say, “Goodnight Dad, I love you,” and stand there looking at the back of his head with no answer. Any time I protested this nightly tradition and expressed my hurt to my mom, she simply cautioned me not to let the “root of bitterness” spring up in my heart. So I did my best to bury my negative emotions, just like I saw my mom doing.

I was supposedly in the prime of my life, but I started to feel very old. My body was full of aches and pains, and I was constantly tired or dealing with a headache. Finally, at my mom’s urging, I went to see a doctor. I was caught off guard when the doctor asked, “Do you think you’re depressed?” “Oh my goodness, no!” I answered. When the doctor left the room, I burst into tears with no idea why. I finally decided that I must have been upset that my Christian witness was damaged since I wasn’t showing Jesus’ peace and joy on my face during my doctor’s appointment.

Looking back, it’s easy to identify that I was deeply depressed and incredibly emotionally repressed. But I didn’t interpret it that way at the time. I saw my depression as “deep spiritual sensitivity” that came from my desire to be perfect. And I saw my emotional repression as “true love”: by pretending I was never bothered and that I had no preferences, I thought I was being unselfish and putting the needs of everyone else before my own.

As I entered college and started to work through many of my social anxiety issues, I continued using the relational techniques that had helped me survive at home. I was passive; I went along with other people’s ideas and goals; I had no strong opinions or desires of my own. I was just there, a non-factor, grateful to be included.

The real change for me came through developing my relationship with my boyfriend/husband. Our long conversations helped me work through my pent up emotions and discover my opinions. On many occasions, he waited patiently even for 20 minutes, silently walking next to me with his arm around my shoulders, so I could finally express a basic opinion or feeling. At some point, I came uncorked, and we now have an entirely different challenge as my opinions and feelings come flying from left and right! In time, I’ll find balance.

Sorry, but I don’t agree with ___.
I felt really sad when you ____.
I’d really rather ____.
I don’t really enjoy ___.
In my opinion, ___.

These phrases may seem mundane to you, but to me they are priceless. Every time I use them, they remind me that I am a real and valuable person with my own identity, my own voice, my own choice. They make me feel empowered because I remember what it was like to try to live without them.

Discuss this post on the NLQ forum. Comments are also open below.

Latebloomer is on a journey away from the ideals she was raised with in the conservative homeschooling culture. Becoming a wife and mother has prompted her to re-evaluate her childhood experiences in an effort to avoid repeating those mistakes.  Her blog at Past Tense Present Progressive is her place for sorting through her thoughts.

We would love to feature your personal story on No Longer Quivering. Please submit what you have to say via our submissions form.

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‘Quivering Daughters‘ by Hillary McFarland

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by Latebloomer

What do homeschooled girls and trash cans have in common?
They both only leave the house once a week.

This joke was well-received among homeschooled youth because it rang true for so many of us. For almost all of my teen years, church was the only social activity that I engaged in, the only time during the whole week that I might have a chance to interact with people who were not my immediate family. Making friends in that context, especially as a shy teen girl, seems daunting. However, I had an even greater obstacle to deal with: I was not allowed to participate in youth group.

My parents were absolutely terrified of teenage rebellion. Thanks to various books and speakers popular in the homeschooling community, my parents believed teen rebellion to be a recent American trend due to indulgent parenting and peer pressure. A rebellious teen was more than just an annoyance in the homeschooling community: that teen was turning his/her back not only on the parents, but also on God. What a tragic waste of years of sacrifice and careful training by the parents! This type of thinking motivated my parents to maintain careful discipline and to shelter us from almost all contact with our peers, even at church.

I distinctly remember the conversation between the youth pastor and my mom. I was probably 14 or 15, and so shy that I would start shaking if anyone tried to talk to me at church. Although social interaction was painful, I desperately needed it, and I think the youth pastor noticed that. He approached my parents after church one day to invite us to Sunday school. My mom asked for the materials that were being used in Sunday school, and took them home to peruse them with my dad. I heard the decision the next week at the same time as the youth pastor: “Our kids will not be attending Sunday school.” The reason? Apparently the material mentioned a teen who was frustrated with his parents, and it was dangerous for me to think that frustration was a valid or normal feeling for a teen to have toward parents.

The tough thing about social phobia is that it is often self-reinforcing. In my case, my severe social anxiety displayed itself in uncontrollable muscle spasms, and anticipating the shaking made me even more anxious about interacting with people. What if someone noticed me shaking? I used to cry myself to sleep at night quite often, occasionally trying to get my mom to notice my tears by sniffing juuuust loud enough for her to hear as she walked by my door. When she came in to ask why I was crying, I would say something like, “I don’t have any friends” or “I don’t know how to talk to people.” The answer to these was always the same: “You have us” or “You’re talking to me right now.” In the morning, life would proceed as usual.

Unfortunately, the “usual” for my life at home was very empty and quiet. My dad was working long hours and was permanently in a bad mood when at home, and my mom was always sapped of energy for various reasons. She left us kids to do our schoolwork independently much of the time; we even corrected our own errors from the answer key. Later, due to mysterious and debilitating health problems, her energy was so low that just going to the grocery store was often too much for her to handle. It was simply understood in the family that we shouldn’t harass her about wanting to leave the house. Since I wasn’t able to get my driver’s license until I was 18, I was stuck for hours, days, weeks, months, years with little-to-no mental or social stimulation.

Little-to-no stimulation is not an exaggeration; obviously, a teen girl who can’t even go to Sunday school due to “bad influences” is going to find many other things forbidden to her as well. Our home did not have a TV; we watched few movies; we only read pre-approved Christian or classical books; we did not have internet access; and we certainly did not listen to most music. My one musical joy was listening to Steve Green and going to his concert with another homeschooling mom. When I tried to add Rebecca St. James to my CD collection, my mom almost had a meltdown because of the beat and the heavy breathing; it didn’t matter that almost every song was a verbatim quote from the Bible. I knew my role–honor your parents–so that CD went straight into the trash and I tried to feel happy that I was obeying God.

What did I do with my time at home? I dragged my school work out to take up most of the day; I spent large amounts of time spaced out, lying on my bed; I wrote in my journals; and I made my own clothes. My homemade clothes were the outward sign of my feelings of isolation. Starting at about age 13, I was responsible for furnishing my own wardrobe (within the boundaries of modesty my parents provided, of course). I had $25 a month to work with, and my mom could tolerate shopping at fabric stores much more than at clothing stores, where everything was “immodest.” (And that was in the women’s clothing sections–I didn’t even know that clothing came in junior sizes until after I had graduated from high school!) Out on various errands or on family vacations, wearing my very odd, ill-fitting clothing, I felt the stares and desperately wished that human contact was unnecessary. “I wish I could just be a hermit!” ….this sentence occurs a little too frequently in my teen journals.

My first friend of my teenage years came from Hope Chapel, when I was about 17. Pastor Reb Bradley, with the support of the homeschooling families of HC, would not allow a youth group in the church. Finally, I was not so odd! It was easier to strike up a conversation with someone, knowing they might be just as desperate and nervous as me. It was easier to not feel judged when the other person’s clothes were just as odd as my own. I could more easily feel successful at conversation because it was not full of cultural references that I had no idea about. I became a little more confident socially, strengthened my atrophied conversational muscles, and got a little more hopeful about life. I was even able to add a second friend by the time I was 19.

Now I’m 30 years old, with four years of college and eight years of work between me and my teen self, yet I still feel the effects of the isolation I experienced growing up.

First, I still feel significant social anxiety in even the most non-threatening situations. I am particularly at a loss in group settings full of new people. What do I say? When do I say it? Whom do I say it to? How/when do I end a conversation? Even in a circle setting, when it’s my turn to say my name, my blood pressure skyrockets.

Second, in the whole world, there is no place and no group of people where I feel like I belong. It’s like I was raised in a different culture, with the distinct difference that I can never go “home” to it. I’m permanently a foreigner; interacting in this foreign culture takes a lot of attention and effort. I’ve tried to catch up on the culture I missed…to watch the movies, to listen to the music, to see pictures of the clothing styles…..but it will never mean to me what it means to you. People always use cultural references and nostalgia as a way to build community and connections between people; for me, they create distance and remind me how different I am inside.

My profile photo is of the 80s star Molly Ringwald. The first time I ever heard her name mentioned was at my first real job, when I was 22 years old. God bless my dear gay boss, who saw through my awkwardness and gave me a chance at the job because I looked like his favorite childhood actress! When he learned that I had no idea who she was, his jaw hit the floor.

These days, I manage to avoid shocking people too much, unless I decide to tell them about my past. To me, the biggest compliment I can receive today is, “You were homeschooled? Wow, I can’t even tell!”

Discuss this post on the NLQ forum. Comments are also open below.

Latebloomer

Latebloomer is on a journey away from the ideals she was raised with in the conservative homeschooling culture.  Becoming a wife and mother has prompted her to re-evaluate her childhood experiences in an effort to avoid repeating those mistakes.  Her blog
Past Tense Present Progressive is her place for sorting through her thoughts.

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'Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment' by Janet Heimlich

‘Quivering Daughters‘ by Hillary McFarland

‘Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement‘ by Kathryn Joyce