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	<title>NO LONGER QIVERING &#187; Dominionism / Christian Reconstruction</title>
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		<title>Quiverfull and the Introvert: Where Do You Get Your Energy?</title>
		<link>http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/04/29/quiverfull-and-the-introvert-where-do-you-get-your-energy/</link>
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		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2012 14:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nolongerquivering.com/?p=16937</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/?attachment_id=16938" rel="attachment wp-att-16938"><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-16938" title="goldfish jumping out of the water" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Introvert-pic-goldfish-300x187.jpg" alt="" width="300" height="187" /></a><span style="color: #008000;"><em><strong>by Barbie Getzreal</strong></em></span>

"Where do you get your energy?!"

This is a question which is frequently asked of Quiverfull moms by amazed and admiring onlookers who cannot imagine being able to <a href="http://organizedeveryday.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">keep up</a> with the exponential demands of "<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6uNj7lauhA" target="_blank">biblical womanhood</a>" including: <a href="http://moorefamilyfilms.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">perpetual pregnancy</a>, <a href="http://pedersenwritings.blogspot.com/2011/09/just-few-thoughts-about-natural.html" target="_blank">child-bearing</a>, <a href="http://www.ourfullhouse.com/home/12-adoption/648-a-frightening-trend-in-christian-adoptions.html" target="_blank">adopting sibling groups</a>, <a href="http://aboverubies.org/articles/english-language/-breastfeeding/322-breastfeeding-gods-way" target="_blank">breastfeeding</a>, <a href="http://cherishedheartsathome.blogspot.com/2011/07/stop-thatyoull-spoil-baby.html" target="_blank">baby wearing</a>, <a href="http://birthingaquiverfull.wordpress.com/the-breast-feeding-relationship/tandem-nursing/" target="_blank">chronic sleep deprivation</a>, <a href="http://inashoe.com/2010/03/4-moms-35-kids-outings/" target="_blank">raising half a dozen or more closely-spaced, "stair-step" children</a>, <a href="http://www.school4jesus.com/" target="_blank">homeschooling</a> - <a href="http://raisingolives.com/2012/04/homeschooling-pregnancy-illness/">year round through chronic illness</a>, <a href="http://humblemusings.com/?p=98" target="_blank">child-training</a>, <a href="http://www.doorposts.com/blog/2011/10/04/teaching-our-daughters-to-do-their-husbands-good-now/" target="_blank">character training</a>, <a href="http://raisinggodlytomatoes.com/" target="_blank">tomato-staking</a>, <a href="http://bealivingsacrifice.blogspot.com/search/label/I%20a%29%20HOMESCHOOLING%20%20%3B%20%20why%20do%20we%20homeschool%3F" target="_blank">discipling children</a>, <a href="http://www.passionatehomemaking.com/" target="_blank">homemaking</a>, <a href="http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2012/02/10-ways-economic-hardship-can-benefit-a-family-2.html" target="_blank">penny-pinching</a>, <a href="http://vaughnshire.com/gardening/organic-gardening-with-the-ruth-stout-hay-mulch-method/">organic gardening,</a> <a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2009/03/27/the-amazing-bosch-universal-mixer/" target="_blank">baking from scratch</a>, <a href="http://homestead4him.blogspot.com/2010/10/once-month-freezer-cooking.html">once-a-month cooking</a>, <a href="http://livingsimplyforhim.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">homesteading</a>, <a href="http://servinggodandfamily.blogspot.com/2009/07/frugally-feminine-apparel-series-day.html" target="_blank">sewing modest clothing</a>, <a href="http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/lady-lydia-speaks/a-season-for-hospitality/" target="_blank">showing hospitality</a>, <a href="http://homeschool-entrepreneur.com/homebusinessideas.html" target="_blank">operating a "cottage" busines</a>s, staying <a href="http://rinamarie.wordpress.com/2011/02/16/why-i-want-to-loose-the-weight/" target="_blank">trim</a>, <a href="http://farmingonfaith.blogspot.com/2012/01/wednesday-weigh-in-and-little.html" target="_blank">fit </a>and <a href="http://wearinghispurity.blogspot.com/2009/09/few-thought-on-health.html" target="_blank">healthy</a>, and of course, serving as <a href="http://proverbs14verse1.blogspot.com/2011/01/wise-planning-for-new-week.html" target="_blank">loving helpmeet</a> ... all without the <a href="http://pursuingtitus2.com/2008/10/30/why-modern-motherhood-is-so-much-harder-than-it-ought-to-be/" target="_blank">modern woman's</a> <a href="http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Family/Parents%20Corner/it_doesn't_take_a_village.htm" target="_blank">"village" of helpers</a>: <a href="http://www.largefamiliesonpurpose.com/2011/02/young-children-inclusion-in.html" target="_blank">daycare</a>, <a href="http://www.preschoolingathome.msen.org/babies.html">preschool</a>, <a href="http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/family-outsideworld.php" target="_blank">play dates</a>, <a href="http://icomebytheblood.blogspot.com/2011/02/raising-children.html">public school</a>, <a href="http://mommalovingjesus.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/the-idolatry-of-television/" target="_blank">the boob-tube babysitter</a>, <a href="http://yoursacredcalling.com/blog/2011/06/health-for-godly-generations-a-review/" target="_blank">pre-packaged and frozen foods</a>, <a href="http://aboverubies.org/articles/english-language/-family-life/389-family-life--how-can-mothers-have-a-qquiet-timeq" target="_blank">day spas</a>, <a href="http://www.raisingarrows.net/2009/07/me-time-myth/" target="_blank">"me time,"</a> <a href="http://aboverubies.org/articles/english-language/-homemaking/286-homemaking--our-journey-out-of-debt" target="_blank">credit cards</a>, <a href="http://peacecreekontheprairie.com/uncategorized/wheat-prices-are-going-down" target="_blank">government assistance</a>, <a href="http://jacquedixon.com/?page_id=3031" target="_blank">"allopathic" medicine</a>, <a href="http://www.visionforumministries.org/issues/uniting_church_and_family/" target="_blank">Sunday School</a>, <a href="http://www.gracefamilybaptist.net/voddie-baucham-ministries/blog/whitehorse-inn-discipleship-and-youth-ministry-2009-12/" target="_blank">youth group</a>, <a href="http://oldearthcreationism.blogspot.com/2011/06/my-thoughts-on-therapy-and-christian.html" target="_blank">therapists</a>, <a href="http://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/drug-addicts/" target="_blank">Ritalin for the kids</a>, or <a href="http://www.bereanwife.net/2008/06/depression/" target="_blank">Xanax for mom</a>.

Even a cursory perusal of the above-linked Quiverfull blogs will leave a woman feeling overwhelmed and exhausted. "Where do you get your energy?" is the obvious and unavoidable question.

The most flippant, unprofitable, guilt-inducing, and insincere responses often sound the most spiritual:

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."<p style="text-align: right;"><strong><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/?p=16937">Full Post</a></strong></p>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/04/29/quiverfull-and-the-introvert-where-do-you-get-your-energy/goldfish-jumping-out-of-the-water/" rel="attachment wp-att-16938"><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-16938" title="goldfish jumping out of the water" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Introvert-pic-goldfish-300x187.jpg" alt="" width="300" height="187" /></a><span style="color: #008000;"><em><strong>by Barbie Getzreal</strong></em></span></p>
<p>&#8220;Where do you get your energy?!&#8221;</p>
<p>This is a question which is frequently asked of Quiverfull moms by amazed and admiring onlookers who cannot imagine being able to <a href="http://organizedeveryday.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">keep up</a> with the exponential demands of &#8220;<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6uNj7lauhA" target="_blank">biblical womanhood</a>&#8221; including: <a href="http://moorefamilyfilms.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">perpetual pregnancy</a>, <a href="http://pedersenwritings.blogspot.com/2011/09/just-few-thoughts-about-natural.html" target="_blank">child-bearing</a>, <a href="http://www.ourfullhouse.com/home/12-adoption/648-a-frightening-trend-in-christian-adoptions.html" target="_blank">adopting sibling groups</a>, <a href="http://aboverubies.org/articles/english-language/-breastfeeding/322-breastfeeding-gods-way" target="_blank">breastfeeding</a>, <a href="http://cherishedheartsathome.blogspot.com/2011/07/stop-thatyoull-spoil-baby.html" target="_blank">baby wearing</a>, <a href="http://birthingaquiverfull.wordpress.com/the-breast-feeding-relationship/tandem-nursing/" target="_blank">chronic sleep deprivation</a>, <a href="http://inashoe.com/2010/03/4-moms-35-kids-outings/" target="_blank">raising half a dozen or more closely-spaced, &#8220;stair-step&#8221; children</a>, <a href="http://www.school4jesus.com/" target="_blank">homeschooling</a> - <a href="http://raisingolives.com/2012/04/homeschooling-pregnancy-illness/">year round through chronic illness</a>, <a href="http://humblemusings.com/?p=98" target="_blank">child-training</a>, <a href="http://www.doorposts.com/blog/2011/10/04/teaching-our-daughters-to-do-their-husbands-good-now/" target="_blank">character training</a>, <a href="http://raisinggodlytomatoes.com/" target="_blank">tomato-staking</a>, <a href="http://bealivingsacrifice.blogspot.com/search/label/I%20a%29%20HOMESCHOOLING%20%20%3B%20%20why%20do%20we%20homeschool%3F" target="_blank">discipling children</a>, <a href="http://www.passionatehomemaking.com/" target="_blank">homemaking</a>, <a href="http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2012/02/10-ways-economic-hardship-can-benefit-a-family-2.html" target="_blank">penny-pinching</a>, <a href="http://vaughnshire.com/gardening/organic-gardening-with-the-ruth-stout-hay-mulch-method/">organic gardening,</a> <a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2009/03/27/the-amazing-bosch-universal-mixer/" target="_blank">baking from scratch</a>, <a href="http://homestead4him.blogspot.com/2010/10/once-month-freezer-cooking.html">once-a-month cooking</a>, <a href="http://livingsimplyforhim.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">homesteading</a>, <a href="http://servinggodandfamily.blogspot.com/2009/07/frugally-feminine-apparel-series-day.html" target="_blank">sewing modest clothing</a>, <a href="http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/lady-lydia-speaks/a-season-for-hospitality/" target="_blank">showing hospitality</a>, <a href="http://homeschool-entrepreneur.com/homebusinessideas.html" target="_blank">operating a &#8220;cottage&#8221; busines</a>s, staying <a href="http://rinamarie.wordpress.com/2011/02/16/why-i-want-to-loose-the-weight/" target="_blank">trim</a>, <a href="http://farmingonfaith.blogspot.com/2012/01/wednesday-weigh-in-and-little.html" target="_blank">fit </a>and <a href="http://wearinghispurity.blogspot.com/2009/09/few-thought-on-health.html" target="_blank">healthy</a>, and of course, serving as <a href="http://proverbs14verse1.blogspot.com/2011/01/wise-planning-for-new-week.html" target="_blank">loving helpmeet</a> &#8230; all without the <a href="http://pursuingtitus2.com/2008/10/30/why-modern-motherhood-is-so-much-harder-than-it-ought-to-be/" target="_blank">modern woman&#8217;s</a> <a href="http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Family/Parents%20Corner/it_doesn't_take_a_village.htm" target="_blank">&#8220;village&#8221; of helpers</a>: <a href="http://www.largefamiliesonpurpose.com/2011/02/young-children-inclusion-in.html" target="_blank">daycare</a>, <a href="http://www.preschoolingathome.msen.org/babies.html">preschool</a>, <a href="http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/family-outsideworld.php" target="_blank">play dates</a>, <a href="http://icomebytheblood.blogspot.com/2011/02/raising-children.html">public school</a>, <a href="http://mommalovingjesus.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/the-idolatry-of-television/" target="_blank">the boob-tube babysitter</a>, <a href="http://yoursacredcalling.com/blog/2011/06/health-for-godly-generations-a-review/" target="_blank">pre-packaged and frozen foods</a>, <a href="http://aboverubies.org/articles/english-language/-family-life/389-family-life--how-can-mothers-have-a-qquiet-timeq" target="_blank">day spas</a>, <a href="http://www.raisingarrows.net/2009/07/me-time-myth/" target="_blank">&#8220;me time,&#8221;</a> <a href="http://aboverubies.org/articles/english-language/-homemaking/286-homemaking--our-journey-out-of-debt" target="_blank">credit cards</a>, <a href="http://peacecreekontheprairie.com/uncategorized/wheat-prices-are-going-down" target="_blank">government assistance</a>, <a href="http://jacquedixon.com/?page_id=3031" target="_blank">&#8220;allopathic&#8221; medicine</a>, <a href="http://www.visionforumministries.org/issues/uniting_church_and_family/" target="_blank">Sunday School</a>, <a href="http://www.gracefamilybaptist.net/voddie-baucham-ministries/blog/whitehorse-inn-discipleship-and-youth-ministry-2009-12/" target="_blank">youth group</a>, <a href="http://oldearthcreationism.blogspot.com/2011/06/my-thoughts-on-therapy-and-christian.html" target="_blank">therapists</a>, <a href="http://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/drug-addicts/" target="_blank">Ritalin for the kids</a>, or <a href="http://www.bereanwife.net/2008/06/depression/" target="_blank">Xanax for mom</a>.</p>
<p>Even a cursory perusal of the above-linked Quiverfull blogs will leave a woman feeling overwhelmed and exhausted. &#8220;Where do you get your energy?&#8221; is the obvious and unavoidable question.</p>
<p>The most flippant, unprofitable, guilt-inducing, and insincere responses often sound the most spiritual:</p>
<p>&#8220;I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;With God all things are possible.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;He will not give us more than we can handle &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>or how about this &#8220;encouraging&#8221; little pep-talk: &#8220;<a href="http://ladyofvirtue.blogspot.com/2007/12/power-outage.html">Just like a battery charger, the Holy Spirit dwells in us&#8211;with unlimited power and energy!</a>&#8221; Oh joy! Christian moms of many just need to get &#8220;plugged-in&#8221; &#8230; and there is a handy dandy list provided of <em>even more things we need to do</em> in order to get &#8220;connected.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thanks. That&#8217;s really helpful. <img src='http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>An important aspect of energy which I have never seen discussed in Quiverfull circles has to do with how our interaction with other people affects our energy levels. Specifically, the difference between <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion">introverts and extraverts</a> is never addressed in relation to large-family dynamics.</p>
<p>While an extravert is energized by frequent social involvement, an introvert gains energy through quiet, private reflection.  Being surrounded by people makes extraverts feel happy, enthusiastic, animated, and pumped full of optimism, but constant interaction drains the introvert&#8217;s energy and leaves them feeling tired, irritable, anxious and angry. It is absolutely essential to an introvert&#8217;s health and well-being to be able to get alone for significant periods of time in order to restore and recharge their own personal energy.</p>
<p>While it is popularly believed that introverts are shy while extraverts are out-going and sociable, there are many &#8220;social-butterfly&#8221; types who are in fact introverts because, even though they thoroughly enjoy the company of their friends and peers, when the party is over and the guests go home, the &#8220;life of the party&#8221; is wiped-out &#8230; sometimes for days afterward. Conversely, there are extraverted people who absolutely need to interact with others in order to gain energy and ward off deep depression, who unfortunately are socially awkward and have difficulty making friends.</p>
<p>Another important distinction is that extraverts tend to think as they talk which means that during conversations they are actually processing their thoughts, while introverts need to think everything through before they feel comfortable verbalizing their thoughts and ideas.</p>
<p>The difference between introverts and extroverts is not some modern psychobabble notion dreamed up by secular humanists to deter true believers from pursuing large families.</p>
<p>Think about it for a minute. Where do YOU get your energy? Do you feel energized after a pleasant chat with friends? If even congenial conversations which you very much enjoy leave you feeling drained of energy, you are probably an introvert. It&#8217;s not that you do not welcome the company of others, it is simply that you fill up your emotional energy reserves from within rather than drawing from other people.</p>
<p>With this concept in mind, consider for a moment: what if a person attempting to live the Quiverfull ideal tends to be naturally introverted?</p>
<p>What if all the socializing required for Dad&#8217;s job leaves him wrung-out like a wet rag by the end of the work day and desperately feeling the need to relax and breathe in the quiet seclusion of his own home?</p>
<p>In &#8220;<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0943497833?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=familiesthatflou&amp;linkCode=shr&amp;camp=213733&amp;creative=393177&amp;creativeASIN=0943497833&amp;ref_=sr_1_fkmr0_1&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1335630636&amp;sr=1-1-fkmr0" target="_blank">A Full Quiver</a>,&#8221; Rick Hess sloughs off the valid concern of &#8220;time&#8221; with this pious admonishment:</p>
<blockquote><p>Worried if you will be able to stand the sacrifice of giving up your time? As one who has been there, let me reassure you that you will be rewarded many times over for giving more and more of yourself to your children.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/04/29/quiverfull-and-the-introvert-where-do-you-get-your-energy/introversion_2873/" rel="attachment wp-att-16961"><img class="alignleft size-full wp-image-16961" title="introversion_2873" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/introversion_2873.jpg" alt="" width="240" height="300" /></a>Already sucked dry? Not a problem! All you need to do is give more and more of yourself &#8230;</p>
<p>What about moms <a href="http://www.duggarfamily.com/content/home/31428/quality_quick_the_duggars_s_strategy_for_family_communication" target="_blank">like Michelle Duggar</a> who, &#8220;spend more time together than the average family that may have two or three children just because we&#8217;re home day in and day out homeschooling and doing all our things that go along with that&#8221;? If Mom&#8217;s an introvert, how does she not go crazy from all of the non-stop interaction with her quiver full of children?</p>
<p>To these overextended women, Nancy Campbell offers a simple solution:</p>
<blockquote><p>To be an encourager, you have to stop thinking about yourself and give some room in your mind and heart for others. I will never forget some words God spoke to me years ago. .&#8221;Nancy,&#8221; He said, &#8220;how can I reveal to you the needs of others if you are always thinking about yourself?&#8221; Oh how true this is.</p></blockquote>
<p>As troublesome a problem as introversion is for Quiverfull parents, at least Mom and Dad have chosen this lifestyle. They are grown-ups with access to a broad range of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome" target="_blank">coping strategies</a>.</p>
<p><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/04/29/quiverfull-and-the-introvert-where-do-you-get-your-energy/how-to-care-for-introverts/" rel="attachment wp-att-16960"><img class="alignleft  wp-image-16960" title="How-to-care-for-introverts" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/How-to-care-for-introverts.jpg" alt="" width="342" height="317" /></a>But what happens to the introverted children in Quiverfull homes?</p>
<p>This is not simply a large-family issue, it is specifically a Quiverfull problem because not all large families are as excessively family-centered and discipline-oriented as homeschooling, homesteading, family-integrated, &#8220;dare-to-shelter&#8221; &#8211; type Quiverfull families. I spent a whole day digging through pro-Quiverfull books, publications, websites, and family blogs; all of which poo-pooed the idea that children might actually <em>need</em> their own space and prolonged alone time.</p>
<p>Amy at Raising Arrows <a href="http://www.raisingarrows.net/2011/06/giving-children-their-own-space/" target="_blank">acknowledges</a> that having their own space is important for everyone, including children in large families, though she insists that her 13-year-old son likes sharing a room with his two little brothers, and by &#8220;giving them space&#8221; she means lock boxes for older children, personal shelves, several short &#8220;brain breaks&#8221; throughout the day for children afflicted with Sensory Processing Disorder (SPD), headphones, and random one-on-one time with Mom and Dad.</p>
<p>&#8220;However,&#8221; writes Amy, &#8220;<strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">we do not allow insurmountable amounts of time spent “alone.</span>”</strong></p>
<blockquote><p>Children left to themselves are problematic. (Prov 29:15)  Minds left to wander without boundaries and guidelines tend to gravitate toward foolish pursuits (Prov 22:15).  And often there can become <a href="http://www.raisingarrows.net/2009/07/me-time-myth/">a craving for escape</a>.  They want more and more and more time alone, and pretty soon you find they are totally disconnected from the family.</p></blockquote>
<p>I first learned about introversion from my daughter&#8217;s speech therapist.  As it turns out, her speech impediment was a symptom of the frustration and extreme vexation she was feeling as a result of not getting adequate space from her siblings in order to recoup all the energy she expended on interacting with them day in and day out for weeks and months and years at a time.  <a href="http://parenting.uwex.edu/parenting-the-preschooler/documents/Supporting%20Your%20Introverted%20Child.pdf" target="_blank">A simple explanation</a> of her need for ample alone time was all her dad and I needed to motivate us to address the problem. We arranged for our daughter to &#8220;chill out&#8221; by herself and almost overnight, she was transformed as if by magic into a much more pleasant person.  Her speech improved dramatically. She became more cooperative and personable.  Her concentration and study skills improved. She developed a refreshingly positive outlook on life.</p>
<p>And it occurred to me that I am an introvert too.  An introvert who was constantly surrounded by my extraverted husband and a passel of children and a martyr&#8217;s mentality which rejected and disdained the very concept of &#8220;me time.&#8221;  No wonder I felt utterly frazzled, bone-weary, spiritless and despondent.  When I felt it would be impossible to squeeze out one more drop of energy from my bankrupt inner being, I was &#8220;encouraged&#8221; by the Titus 2 women to persevere <a href="http://www.noblewomanhood.com/2011/when-thou-liest-down/" target="_blank">even while I was bed-ridden</a>.</p>
<p>Given that those individuals who are prone to careful contemplation and thoughtful deliberation, as well as a <a href="http://talentdevelop.com/articles/GiftIntrov.html" target="_blank">significant majority of &#8220;gifted&#8221; persons</a>, generally tend toward the introverted end of the extravert-introvert spectrum, it&#8217;s a sure bet that introverts actually predominate in Quiverfull homes. This may be a key reason why, when dynamic, industrious, enterprising, indefatigable Quiverfull believers finally snap, they crash and burn in the most spectacular manifestation of downright mania.  Men abandon their families. Mothers drown their children. Kids cut themselves and attempt suicide.  How much misery and destruction could be avoided if individual family members were simply allowed an adequate amount of personal solitude?</p>
<p><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=2085"><em>Discuss this post on the NLQ forum</em>.</a> Comments are also open below.</p>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<p><strong>NLQ Recommends ...</strong></p>

<p><strong> </strong>'<a href="http://t.co/dUxVWO8">Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment</a>' by Janet Heimlich</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/9Wm2c3">Quivering Daughters</a>‘ by Hillary McFarland</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/bAB5He">Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement</a>‘ by Kathryn Joyce</p>
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		<title>Karma Will Run Over Your Dogma &amp; Squash It</title>
		<link>http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/04/27/karma-will-run-over-your-dogma-squash-it/</link>
		<comments>http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/04/27/karma-will-run-over-your-dogma-squash-it/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2012 21:56:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>nolongerquivering</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nolongerquivering.com/?p=16926</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/?attachment_id=16927" rel="attachment wp-att-16927"><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-16927" title="CotHB" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/CotHB-300x225.jpg" alt="" width="300" height="225" /></a><span style="color: #008000;"><strong><em>by Calulu</em></strong></span>

<em>(Editorial note: What follows below is my own personal thoughts on this, no one elses, I'm not speaking for the group, just me. I cannot stay silent to this. If you're offended or triggered I'm so sorry. Warning if you are triggered by scriptures or the like.)</em>

This morning several of us at NLQ were directed to look at<a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2012/04/24/womens-prayer-group-praying-that-the-women-at-mrff-all-get-incurable-breast-cancer/"> "Women's Prayer Group Praying That the Women at MRFF All Get Incurable Breast Cancer"</a>  posting on <a href="http://www.freethoughtblogs.com/"> Free Thought Blogs</a>.

Apparently there is a group of ladies calling themselves Christians who've decided to make praying for the death of anyone connected with the<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Religious_Freedom_Foundation"> Military Religious Freedom Foundation</a> their number one priority. And why is that? Perhaps because the<a href="http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/"> MRFF is a watchdog organization</a> that keeps the the Dominionist evangelical Christians in the military from discriminating, harassing or intimidating people that believe or don't believe differently than them. Yes, the MRFF protects the religious FREEDOM our country was founded upon. Oh how very evil!<p style="text-align: right;"><strong><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/?p=16926">Full Post</a></strong></p>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/04/27/karma-will-run-over-your-dogma-squash-it/cothb/" rel="attachment wp-att-16927"><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-16927" title="CotHB" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/CotHB-300x225.jpg" alt="" width="300" height="225" /></a><span style="color: #008000;"><strong><em>by Calulu</em></strong></span></p>
<p><em>(Editorial note: What follows below is my own personal thoughts on this, no one elses, I&#8217;m not speaking for the group, just me. I cannot stay silent to this. If you&#8217;re offended or triggered I&#8217;m so sorry. Warning if you are triggered by scriptures or the like.)</em></p>
<p>This morning several of us at NLQ were directed to look at<a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2012/04/24/womens-prayer-group-praying-that-the-women-at-mrff-all-get-incurable-breast-cancer/"> &#8220;Women&#8217;s Prayer Group Praying That the Women at MRFF All Get Incurable Breast Cancer&#8221;</a>  posting on <a href="http://www.freethoughtblogs.com/"> Free Thought Blogs</a>.</p>
<p>Apparently there is a group of ladies calling themselves Christians who&#8217;ve decided to make praying for the death of anyone connected with the<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Religious_Freedom_Foundation"> Military Religious Freedom Foundation</a> their number one priority. And why is that? Perhaps because the<a href="http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/"> MRFF is a watchdog organization</a> that keeps the the Dominionist evangelical Christians in the military from discriminating, harassing or intimidating people that believe or don&#8217;t believe differently than them. Yes, the MRFF protects the religious FREEDOM our country was founded upon. Oh how very evil!</p>
<p>When I first read through it my immediate response was what the hell? What. The. Hell. Is. This &#8230; well you know the word. I felt like going all nasty dung-throwing rantiness on it. But I get the sense that&#8217;s sort of what they&#8217;re looking for so that this group can justify their own nastiness with a &#8216;See, see how EVIL they are!!!&#8217;. I wanted to throw up my hands and shout &#8220;WTF!&#8221;</p>
<p>I have to laugh and agree with both Chris Rodda on Free Thought Blogs and <a href="http://www.politicususa.com/when-issuing-imprecatory-death-prayers-does-spelling-count.html">Leah Burton of POLITICUSUSA</a> about how completely UNChristian these women are. I also want to know if in the eyes of the Lord does spelling count when issuing imprecatory death prayers. They&#8217;ve been sending around an email spelling out the names of people they are praying to be stricken with breast cancer along with some very, um,<em> interesting</em> spelling. Below is the email:</p>
<blockquote><p><span style="color: #0000ff;"><em>“Mickey Wienstien, we called you on the weekend to advice you that our womens prayer circle at our church will be ending your wickedness against Christ Jesus and his anointed of the USA in our military. In America which is Jesus’ country we can pray all we want for anything we want. you hung up on us and were rude to our leader. but will that stop us or Christ Jesus? No it will not and never could have, wicked Mickey. Our prayer circle has never failed to acheive our hosts granting of the scripture we pray. for direct intervention against you as you are a true demon to America. Luke 9:1 We will not stop our prayers until you stop the evil you do with Lucifer on a daly basis. Luke 9:1 But not against you Mickey. We know by your internet site and your book who it is to be. Now for our prayer, we pray that the women who work in your MFRR and the women in your family will befall fast moving breast cancer which can not everbe cured. We pray this for Leah Bruton, and Becki Miller, Patricia Corigan, Chris Rodda, Edie Disler, Vicky Garrison, Kristin Leslie, Melinda Moeton and Joan Slish. And you evil clan too, we pray this for Bonnie Wiensten and Amanda and Amber Wienstein and the woman lawyers Cariline Mitchel and Katherin Ritchy and all women of all who work at with for Military Freedom Against Religon Foundation. know that we pray and pray hard all the days until you stop your destruction of our American army and accept Christ Jesus as Lord and join His army.”</em></span></p></blockquote>
<p>Guess none of them ever read Luke 6:27 through 36 or they&#8217;d know that you&#8217;re supposed to bless your enemies, pray for them and do good to them. Or are they just ignoring that part of Luke because it doesn&#8217;t line up with their personal agenda? You cannot have it both ways, either you love the Lord and seek to keep His word or you aren&#8217;t really Christians because you don&#8217;t even follow what you say you believe.</p>
<p>Also, Luke 9:1 that they cite in their email has nothing to do with Lucifer or their prayer circle or America. What is says <span style="color: #800080;"><em>&#8220;When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases,&#8221;</em></span> I seriously doubt any of them are part of the Twelve. Driving out demons and curing diseases is also very diametrically opposed to praying for disease to kill someone. It&#8217;s emotional murder, harboring the spirit of murder as surely as pointing a gun and pulling the trigger. The desire is there.</p>
<p>Actually the only real thing that their email does expose is the condition of their hearts, that they don&#8217;t have love in their hearts, that they&#8217;ve chosen curses instead of blessings. Chose today, blessings or curses. Pretty easy to see what they&#8217;ve chosen. I&#8217;d be curious to see what the outcome in their own lives will be in six months or a year as a result of their choice to curse. One of the things I&#8217;ve learned in my years as believer and before that, be very careful what you wish on other people because the universal law of reciprocity tends to bring that thing you&#8217;re wishing on others straight back to you. When you pray for judgement on others or bad things then you&#8217;re telling the universe or God that it&#8217;s alright with you to release the same thing on you. It never ends well. Better to forgive, forget and live in peace, move on. Or you might find yourself eating a rubber biscuit. The kind you throw at someone else to hurt them, it bounces off the wall and lands right in your big old trap to poison you.</p>
<p>Karma can be a big old nasty bitch. I&#8217;m almost afraid for these ladies because what they&#8217;ve released in the spiritual realm can&#8217;t be a good thing. Look what happened when someone cursed King David in the Psalms 109:28<em><span style="color: #800080;"> &#8220;Let them curse, but You bless; When they arise, let them be ashamed, But let Your servant rejoice&#8221;</span></em> David knew enough of who he was and who the Lord is that he asked God to bless him and to outdo the curse and then turned the curse back on those that uttered it.</p>
<p>I remember back when I was working for a big computer company in the Virginia Technology Corridor I came to work one day just in time to see people huddled fearfully in groups here and there in the parking lot. Spray painted on the side of the building were upside down crosses, 666 and the words &#8220;Satin Rules&#8221;! Someone had thoughtfully placed a big black Hefty bag filled with dead chickens on the main door step, right smack dab on the welcome mat. Several of my coworkers were shaken up by all of this because dead chickens left on the steps of a building are a curse of death on the occupants in black arts and voodoo. One lady started crying, refusing to enter the building, thinking she was going to die. I had to point out to her that it was likely it was just one of our loonier disgruntled former coworkers that did this and that they couldn&#8217;t be much of a Satan worshiper if they couldn&#8217;t even be bothered to spell their master&#8217;s name right. It was strictly a tactic to make people fearful and fall into a self-fulfilling prophesy.</p>
<p>This is just more of that I think. Silly ecclesiastical posturing in an attempt to sow fear.</p>
<p>To those praying for death I have only to say chose carefully, blessings or curses this day. I would hope you&#8217;d chose blessings.</p>
<p>PS. Reminds me of this song</p>
<p><iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rJXIugwiN7Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe></p>
<p><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=2079"><em>Discuss this post on the NLQ forum</em>.</a> Comments are also open below.</p>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<p><strong>NLQ Recommends ...</strong></p>

<p><strong> </strong>'<a href="http://t.co/dUxVWO8">Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment</a>' by Janet Heimlich</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/9Wm2c3">Quivering Daughters</a>‘ by Hillary McFarland</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/bAB5He">Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement</a>‘ by Kathryn Joyce</p>
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		<title>An Introduction to Paul</title>
		<link>http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/03/20/an-introduction-to-paul/</link>
		<comments>http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/03/20/an-introduction-to-paul/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2012 15:34:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>nolongerquivering</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nolongerquivering.com/?p=16521</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<span style="color: #008000;"><em><strong><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/?attachment_id=16524" rel="attachment wp-att-16524"><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-16524" title="paul" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/paul-300x199.jpg" alt="" width="300" height="199" /></a>By Paul</strong></em></span>

Vyckie Garrison has asked me to write an introductory post concerning my blog, paulspassingthoughts.com, and the timing is perfect. After researching New Calvinism for five years now, I have recently discovered a relationship between New Calvinism and Patriarchy groups. This is a very significant development.

New Calvinism shapes most of the Christian landscape in our day. It came out of the Progressive Adventist movement in 1970. The base doctrine is the centrality of the objective gospel outside of us. It teaches that all truth is outside of us and encapsulated in the gospel. By understanding Christ and his works in a deeper and deeper way, we manifest one of two realms, Spirit or flesh. New Calvinists attest to what some call the total depravity of the saints.

The project that launched the movement was known as the Australian Forum and their theological journal was Present Truth Magazine. The magazine is no longer published, but at one time was the most widely circulated theological journal in the world. The Forum participants, primarily Robert Brinsmead, Geoffrey Paxton, and Graeme Goldsworthy believed they had rediscovered the lost gospel of the Reformation.

The movement is characterized by exclusiveness (what they call their “scandalous gospel”), a Crusades like motivation (new Reformation), and heavy handed leadership style. These are basic characteristics that result in the tsunami of spiritual abuse that is indicative of New Calvinism. In fact, the list of potential warning signs for spiritual abuse as posted by the Take Heart Project hit close to home for those who know New Calvinism:

<p style="text-align: right;"><a href=": http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/03/20/an-introduction-to-paul/"><strong>Full Post</strong></a></p>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span style="color: #008000;"><em><strong><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/03/20/an-introduction-to-paul/paul-2/" rel="attachment wp-att-16524"><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-16524" title="paul" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/paul-300x199.jpg" alt="" width="300" height="199" /></a>By Paul</strong></em></span></p>
<p>Vyckie Garrison has asked me to write an introductory post concerning my blog, paulspassingthoughts.com, and the timing is perfect. After researching New Calvinism for five years now, I have recently discovered a relationship between New Calvinism and Patriarchy groups. This is a very significant development.</p>
<p>New Calvinism shapes most of the Christian landscape in our day. It came out of the Progressive Adventist movement in 1970. The base doctrine is the centrality of the objective gospel outside of us. It teaches that all truth is outside of us and encapsulated in the gospel. By understanding Christ and his works in a deeper and deeper way, we manifest one of two realms, Spirit or flesh. New Calvinists attest to what some call the total depravity of the saints.</p>
<p>The project that launched the movement was known as the Australian Forum and their theological journal was Present Truth Magazine. The magazine is no longer published, but at one time was the most widely circulated theological journal in the world. The Forum participants, primarily Robert Brinsmead, Geoffrey Paxton, and Graeme Goldsworthy believed they had rediscovered the lost gospel of the Reformation.</p>
<p>The movement is characterized by exclusiveness (what they call their “scandalous gospel”), a Crusades like motivation (new Reformation), and heavy handed leadership style. These are basic characteristics that result in the tsunami of spiritual abuse that is indicative of New Calvinism. In fact, the list of potential warning signs for spiritual abuse as posted by the Take Heart Project hit close to home for those who know New Calvinism:</p>
<p>Does your church or group place careful emphasis on unquestioning obedience to authority?</p>
<p>Does your church or group believe that they have found the truth and that all others are deceived?</p>
<p>An affirmative answer to the latter question dominates the New Calvinist motif of the lost Reformation Gospel rediscovered by the Australian Forum. It is known in the movement as “semper reformanda.” The recovery of their “underestimated,” “unadjusted” gospel.</p>
<p>The marriage of New Calvinism and Patriarchy-like movements is bad news for the church. Only truth sets us free; truth only sanctifies, and nothing else (John 17:17). My preliminary studies indicate that this is a marriage of convenience, unlike the majority of movements today that find their roots in the centrality of the objective gospel outside of us. But New Calvinism has tenets that bolster Patriarchy in many ways, as can be illustrated with this microcosm by blogger Mara Reid: <a href="http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2012/03/new-calvinist-neo-patriarch-on-divorce.html">From Bitter Waters To Sweet</a></p>
<p>Also, New Calvinists played a role in the development of The Danvers Statement which is sort of a statement of faith and purpose used by the Patriarchy movement and developed by The Counsel on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. The counsel’s staff,<br />
board of directors, and council members are heavily populated with New Calvinists. This tightknit relationship is intriguing to me.</p>
<p>I have a dog in this fight. I find the indifference regarding the spiritual abuse of these ministries as unfortunate collateral damage completely unacceptable. A small price for the sake of the semper reformanda seems to be the attitude. Such is not our Lord. He is a judge that stands at the door in defense of the one of ninety-nine, the one who knows of every sparrow that falls to the ground, and defines true religion in service of the oppressed. God’s law is written on the heart of every person, but the Christian has that law set on fire in his heart by the Spirit of God. We love what God loves, the God of Justice and mercy, the defender of the weak.</p>
<p>This battle can be won and many can be saved from unnecessary evil, but we must take a lesson from the abusers themselves. The Forum started the techniques of networks and conventions to promote the centrality of the objective gospel. Those joining in God’s service to earnestly contend for the faith will have to do the same. We will do this in the midst of what Christ predicted would be the conditions of the last days marked by his coming and imminent return:</p>
<p>“Because of anomia, the hearts of many will be cold.”</p>
<p><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=1621&#038;pid=16527#pid16527"><em>Discuss this post on the NLQ forum</em>.</a> Comments are also open below.</p>
<p>Be sure to visit Paul&#8217;s blog for more of his thoughts on subjects like the one raised today. <a href="http://www.paulspassingthoughts.com">http://www.paulspassingthoughts.com</a></p>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<p><strong>NLQ Recommends ...</strong></p>

<p><strong> </strong>'<a href="http://t.co/dUxVWO8">Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment</a>' by Janet Heimlich</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/9Wm2c3">Quivering Daughters</a>‘ by Hillary McFarland</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/bAB5He">Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement</a>‘ by Kathryn Joyce</p>
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		<title>Justice is No Lady: Chapter 10 My Right to Be Heard</title>
		<link>http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/03/02/justice-is-no-lady-chapter-10-my-right-to-be-heard/</link>
		<comments>http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/03/02/justice-is-no-lady-chapter-10-my-right-to-be-heard/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>nolongerquivering</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[A Woman's Choice]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Accountability]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Adultery]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Alienation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Anxiety]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Any Cause Divorce]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Chastisement]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical Manhood & Womanhood]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Child Abuse]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Depression]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Divorce & Remarriage]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Domestic Abuse]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Dominionism / Christian Reconstruction]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Examples of Quiverfull Gone Wrong]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Frugality]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Help Meet]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Homemaking]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Husbands Love Your Wives]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Instant, Joyous, Obedience]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Isolation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Justice Is No Lady]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Kobayashi Maru ~ The No-Win Scenario]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Male Headship]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Manipulation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Marriage Covenant]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Maternal Martyr]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mental / Emotional Health]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Motherhood]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Pater Familias]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Patriarchy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Perfectionism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Personal Autonomy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Proverbs 31 Woman]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Recovering from Spiritual Abuse]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Self-Abnegation / Martydom]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Self-Preservation Factor]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Separation - Individuation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Shame]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Spiritual Adultery]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Submission]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The Godly Woman]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Toxic Relationships]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Triggers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Umbrella of Authority]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Weaker Vessel]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[biblical chastisement]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[child abuse]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[depression]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[help meet]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Husbands love your wives]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Instant]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Joyous]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[male headship]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Obedience]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[patriarchy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[toxic relationships]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nolongerquivering.com/?p=16370</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<strong><span style="color: #339966;"><em></em><em>By Tess Willoughby</em></span></strong>

<a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/?attachment_id=16378" rel="attachment wp-att-16378"><img class="alignleft size-full wp-image-16378" title="defenant-rising1" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/defenant-rising1.jpg" alt="" width="276" height="183" /></a>Nate got another partner almost immediately. He found her on a Christian dating site. Patty had money from her millionaire father and a big house paid for by the government salary of her estranged husband. Nate had told me that remarriage for me was unbiblical, but he found a loophole in Scripture and told the children that he and Patty were already married in God’s eyes. God having spoken, Nate moved into Patty’s house and put our marital home up for rent.

Nate wrote me a letter warning that if I did not “come to terms” (give him full custody of the children), he would hold a big yard sale and sell off everything in the house that belonged to me and the kids. He had the right to do this, having been awarded the entire contents of the house by the courts. The letter specifically mentioned a silver tray that my grandparents had given us as a wedding present. The toys, costly and old-fashioned and ordered from catalogs, had been my parents’ birthday and Christmas gifts to the children. The kids had left behind probably two thousand dollars’ worth of toys--$300 in large hand-carved wooden blocks alone. Nate sold them all, except for a few that he informed us he would keep at Patty’s house for “when the children come home.” Nate sold or gave to Goodwill the 150 books in my personal library and the children’s library.<p style="text-align: right;"><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/03/01/divorce-as-salvation/"><strong>Read More</strong></a></p>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong><span style="color: #339966;"><em></em><em>By Tess Willoughby</em></span></strong></p>
<p><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/03/02/justice-is-no-lady-chapter-10-my-right-to-be-heard/defenant-rising1/" rel="attachment wp-att-16378"><img class="alignleft size-full wp-image-16378" title="defenant-rising1" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/defenant-rising1.jpg" alt="" width="276" height="183" /></a>Nate got another partner almost immediately. He found her on a Christian dating site. Patty had money from her millionaire father and a big house paid for by the government salary of her estranged husband. Nate had told me that remarriage for me was unbiblical, but he found a loophole in Scripture and told the children that he and Patty were already married in God’s eyes. God having spoken, Nate moved into Patty’s house and put our marital home up for rent.</p>
<p>Nate wrote me a letter warning that if I did not “come to terms” (give him full custody of the children), he would hold a big yard sale and sell off everything in the house that belonged to me and the kids. He had the right to do this, having been awarded the entire contents of the house by the courts. The letter specifically mentioned a silver tray that my grandparents had given us as a wedding present. The toys, costly and old-fashioned and ordered from catalogs, had been my parents’ birthday and Christmas gifts to the children. The kids had left behind probably two thousand dollars’ worth of toys&#8211;$300 in large hand-carved wooden blocks alone. Nate sold them all, except for a few that he informed us he would keep at Patty’s house for “when the children come home.” Nate sold or gave to Goodwill the 150 books in my personal library and the children’s library.</p>
<p>Nate informed the children during visitation that he was sleeping with his fiancée, but that he was sleeping on top of the covers while Patty slept underneath.</p>
<p>Sam, who has always been precociously bright, was eleven at the time and had developed advanced bullshit radar. “On top of the covers” has been a pet euphemism for Sam and I ever since. Whenever Sam was trying to get away with something and making preposterous excuses, I’d say, “you’re on top of the covers on that one, bud.”<br />
In the divorce, the court-appointed psychologist reported that Nate had a high probability for child abuse and that I had every indicator of a battered spouse. She also found that the children’s accounts of child abuse were entirely credible. Nate tested high for narcissistic personality disorder and had indicators of antisocial disorder, white I had post-traumatic stress disorder and depression.</p>
<p>So, readers: what do judges do when they appoint psychologists to evaluate a broken family and file a report, and that report states that the non-custodial parent has:</p>
<p><em>      *  chronic, untreatable personality disorders,</em></p>
<p><em>      *  an estranged partner who perfectly fits a battered partner’s profile, and</em></p>
<p><em>      *  credible reports (though no present physical evidence or prior police reports) that the noncustodial parent has abused the children as well.</em></p>
<p>Anybody?</p>
<p>The judges either order a joint custody arrangement, or order the custodial parent to give the children to the noncustodial parent for “visitation,” because (and this is the case in all fifty states, as far as I can tell from my research) only parents who have been proven to cause recent, physical injury to their biological children are not allowed unsupervised contact with their children.</p>
<p>Women escaping abusive cults or cult-like situations with children have no chance to even draw a breath of relief, figure out how to survive, or even hardly unpack, before they are in a courtroom being ordered to hand over their kids to the crazy man who hurt both them and the kids. Once the abuser has the kids alone, even infrequently, he’s able to make sure that the kids do not ever become normal, and to turn the kids against his former partner in an effort to force her back, to force her to accept legal terms that are not in her best interest, or simply to torture her using her children.</p>
<p><em>You escaped abuse. Congratulations!</em> says the juvenile legal system. <em>You’re probably just lying about the abuse to get an advantage in court, and we won’t tolerate any interference with your ex’s visitation with his children. Now come to court as much as your ex wants, even if that’s once a week. He has a “right to access the system” but you too have a “right to be heard,” for which you should be grateful and respectful. Cooperate with your children’s father and get along. And get over that PTSD and depression, get a job, and become a demonstrably successful mother, or we’ll give your children to your ex.</em></p>
<p>Courtrooms have become a trauma trigger for me. I react to being in a courtroom with Nate no differently than I would if I found myself back in my old house with Nate. I’m like a Vietnam vet parachuted into a rice paddy. It doesn’t even have to be a courtroom where Nate is present: I have nervous jitters when I’m in any courthouse for any reason. I get sweaty palms and fight off a panic attack when I take a child to court to get a driver’s license.</p>
<p>For Nate, court was a dating service. He couldn’t get me to go on real dates, but I could be subpoenaed for dozens of court dates, and jailed if I did not appear. He would put me on the stand and grill me for three or four hours at a stretch until I nearly fainted. I was forced to go into jury rooms with him for “depositions,” where I was so terrified I could not breathe, much less think. Then Nate would go into court and cross-examine me about what I said in the jury room and how it differed from what I was saying now, and “was it not true that I was lying now? Or had I been lying then?” The courts and their police power would force me to show up and submit to his abuse on a regular schedule.</p>
<p>Nate has a special voice he uses in court. It is the same voice he used during our marriage to signal that he was about to inflict physical pain on me if I didn’t yield to his demands. It is slow, with every syllable carefully enunciated, slightly mocking, and ice cold. In the early years it was all could do to remain seated in a courtroom, and not run away, as soon as Nate began speaking in that voice. Many times, I have asked for a recess and gone to the ladies’ room to vomit.</p>
<p>In my very first juvenile court hearing in my hometown, the judge said two things to me:</p>
<p><em>      1. I was probably lying about the child abuse.</em></p>
<p><em>     2. If I wasn’t lying about the child abuse then I condoned it.</em></p>
<p>Since that day, I’ve probably replayed those two statements in my head a thousand times, trying to figure out how they jive, and what they have to do with custody or visitation.<br />
The guardian ad litem chimed in and said I had poor parenting skills and was the lesser of two evils.<br />
Nate’s fiancée Patty took the stand and said Nate was the most wonderful Christian man in the world, was positively fantastic to her two children, and that I was making it all up to get revenge.<br />
Nate took the stand and bawled like a baby about how much he missed the kids, said that I had abandoned him for no reason and “kidnapped” all of his children, and added that I had always been abusive and controlling.</p>
<p>The judge gave Nate unsupervised visits every other Saturday for eight hours, plus one phone call a week.</p>
<p>Now I realize I got off easy, with Nate getting no overnight visitation, and with his visitation occurring only twice a month. I talked to one man whose children had to spend every weekend in a meth lab with their mother and her string of lovers, where there was no food. The common practice in juvenile courts is to determine the maximum amount of destructive visitation that the kids can tolerate with abusive noncustodial parents without being hurt too badly (and being neglected and mentally and emotionally wrecked doesn’t really count). This is true even in states like Virginia, where the legal standard is “the best interests of the child.” The pattern with Nate, as I’ve gone before 15 different judges in 12 years, has been that Nate gets increasing visitation over time. He hires rent-a-shrinks who testify that he has no personality disorders and is no danger to his children.</p>
<p>Nate’s second wife helps; Patty has testified dozens of times that there’s nothing wrong with Nate. Nate married Patty in 2003 but kept pressuring me to come back to him. I could live in the bedroom over the garage, he said. Patty was totally on board with this, as she freely testified in court.</p>
<p>I began to wonder about my children’s stepmother. On the other hand, my own experience taught me that you can find freaks on any dating site, but the Christian dating sites are in a freak class all by themselves.</p>
<p>Speaking of freaky groups of people, here is a shoutout to everybody in the legal system who thinks “the right to be heard”—to defend yourself before the law&#8211;is a sacred and beautiful right which insures the courts will be fair, simply because both sides “get their day in court.”</p>
<p>I have been heard through 158 court appearances. My lawyers were heard until I went bankrupt, and then I was heard representing myself. I have been heard through five Legal Aid attorneys, even though they could only manage a tiny fraction of the litigation Nate filed while still representing the other poor women in the area. I was heard until I was suicidal and on Prozac and Zoloft. I was heard right through five therapists. Nate issued a subpoena to one of these therapists, who responded by mailing Nate the notes he had taken during my therapy sessions.</p>
<p>My children have been heard too, in chambers and on the witness stand, after they had been prepped by their father for hours during court-ordered visitation. Everybody we were connected with was heard: medical care providers, counselors, relatives, friends, employers, prospective employers—until we felt like some kind of legal plague. Prosecutors and defense lawyers were heard on the sixty warrants that Nate swore out before magistrates, or made Jack swear out before magistrates. I was falsely arrested three times—but I had a right to be heard. We were heard through a decade of terrible poverty and despair.</p>
<p>Things are better now, but we are still all exercising our right to be heard as often as Nate decides to file papers in court. Whether it’s pure hell, as it mostly was ten years ago, or a major inconvenience, as it mostly is now, it’s no picnic. Some might even call it an outrage.</p>
<p><em><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=1181">Discuss this post on the NLQ forum!</a></em></p>
<p><strong><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/nlqstories/tess-willoughby/">Read all posts by Tess Willoughby!</a></strong></p>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<p><strong>NLQ Recommends ...</strong></p>

<p><strong> </strong>'<a href="http://t.co/dUxVWO8">Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment</a>' by Janet Heimlich</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/9Wm2c3">Quivering Daughters</a>‘ by Hillary McFarland</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/bAB5He">Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement</a>‘ by Kathryn Joyce</p>
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		<item>
		<title>Doug Phillips on the Threat of Population Decline</title>
		<link>http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/03/01/doug-phillips-on-the-threat-of-population-decline/</link>
		<comments>http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/03/01/doug-phillips-on-the-threat-of-population-decline/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Mar 2012 15:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>nolongerquivering</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Accountability]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Birth Control]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Dominionism / Christian Reconstruction]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Doug Phillips]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Drinking the Koolaid]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Elitism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Love, Joy, Feminism (Libby Anne)]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Marketing "Biblical Family Values"]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mega-Families]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Militant Fecundity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Overpopulation / Demographic Winter]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Pro-Life]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Psalm 127 / Quiverfull: Be Fruitful & Multiply]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Quiverfull & the Bible]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Quiverfull Leaders]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Quiverfull Ministries]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Quiverfull Topics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Racism / White Supremacy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Self-Abnegation / Martydom]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Shame]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Vision Forum (Doug Phillips)]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[birth control]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[doug phillips]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Feminism (Libby Anne)]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Joy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Love]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Marketing “Biblical Family Values”]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[militant fecundity]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nolongerquivering.com/?p=16358</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/?attachment_id=16359" rel="attachment wp-att-16359"><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-16359" title="demographic-winter" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/demographic-winter-300x216.gif" alt="" width="300" height="216" /></a>Libby Anne has an <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism/2012/03/01/doug-phillips-on-the-threat-of-population-decline/" target="_blank">interesting article</a> this morning at <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism" target="_blank">Love, Joy, Feminism</a> addressing overpopulation (an issue which is only controversial among those fundamentalist Christians who hold that the Genesis command to "be fruitful and multiply" still applies today):

<em>I recently ran across <a href="http://www.visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/2012/02/9962/">an article</a> on Vision Forum president Doug Phillips’ blog, in which he repeats a line I heard so often growing up: Our world isn’t facing an overpopulation crisis, but is rather headed toward a demographic decline that will result in economic catastrophe. In other words, having 12+ children doesn’t contribute to overpopulation but rather serves as a way to fight and avert the potential problems of demographic decline.</em>

<em>This idea is frequently put forward by the conservative Christian news magazine <a href="http://www.worldmag.com/">World</a>, and has been the subject of several documentaries, including <a href="http://www.demographicwinter.com/index.html">Demographic Winter</a> and <a href="http://www.demographicbomb.com/">Demographic Bomb</a>. It shouldn’t be surprising that this idea was put forward <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Over-Population-ROUSAS-J-RUSHDOONY/dp/B000O2RLM4">in the 1970s</a> by the man who single-handedly created dominionism, Rousas Rushdoony himself. Based on these ideas, Vision Forum, which sells Rushdoony’s books and supports his views, recently held a pro-mass-reproduction event called the <a href="http://www.visionforumministries.org/events/bc/">Baby Conference</a>.</em>

<p style="text-align: right;"><strong><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/03/01/doug-phillips-on-the-threat-of-population-decline/">Full post ...</a></strong></p>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/03/01/doug-phillips-on-the-threat-of-population-decline/demographic-winter/" rel="attachment wp-att-16359"><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-16359" title="demographic-winter" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/demographic-winter-300x216.gif" alt="" width="300" height="216" /></a>Libby Anne has an <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism/2012/03/01/doug-phillips-on-the-threat-of-population-decline/" target="_blank">interesting article</a> this morning at <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism" target="_blank">Love, Joy, Feminism</a> addressing overpopulation (an issue which is only controversial among those fundamentalist Christians who hold that the Genesis command to &#8220;be fruitful and multiply&#8221; still applies today):</p>
<p><em>I recently ran across <a href="http://www.visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/2012/02/9962/">an article</a> on Vision Forum president Doug Phillips’ blog, in which he repeats a line I heard so often growing up: Our world isn’t facing an overpopulation crisis, but is rather headed toward a demographic decline that will result in economic catastrophe. In other words, having 12+ children doesn’t contribute to overpopulation but rather serves as a way to fight and avert the potential problems of demographic decline.</em></p>
<p><em>This idea is frequently put forward by the conservative Christian news magazine <a href="http://www.worldmag.com/">World</a>, and has been the subject of several documentaries, including <a href="http://www.demographicwinter.com/index.html">Demographic Winter</a> and <a href="http://www.demographicbomb.com/">Demographic Bomb</a>. It shouldn’t be surprising that this idea was put forward <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Over-Population-ROUSAS-J-RUSHDOONY/dp/B000O2RLM4">in the 1970s</a> by the man who single-handedly created dominionism, Rousas Rushdoony himself. Based on these ideas, Vision Forum, which sells Rushdoony’s books and supports his views, recently held a pro-mass-reproduction event called the <a href="http://www.visionforumministries.org/events/bc/">Baby Conference</a>.</em></p>
<p>Libby Anne cites the typical arguments used to discount and dismiss concerns about the global overpopulation crisis with which Quiverfull believers are intimately familiar and offers several common sense rebuttals:</p>
<p><em>The trouble is of course that choosing to have only one or two children, or even none, does not mean one is automatically “selfish.” There are all sorts of ways to give back to the world and to those around us, to work to make the world a better place, outside of having children. Furthermore, wanting to give each child the best we can, or to raise children with economic security, is not selfish.</em></p>
<p><em>&#8230;</em></p>
<p><em>Not unexpectedly, Phillips rejects the idea that a continually expanding population could lead to environmental catastrophe or resource wars or food shortages. Why? Because (a) God told us to be fruitful and multiply, not to be fruitful and multiply until there are enough people; (b) God has said that only he can destroy the earth; and (c) the earth was created to meet our needs and will therefore always be adequate. This is (a) dependent on the existence of God and divine nature of the Bible, (b) stems from a fairly fundamentalist and literal interpretation of the Bible, and (c) runs contrary to what we know – resourcesare limited, and mankind can destroy, or at least very much damage, the earth (imagine what a nuclear war would do, for instance).</em></p>
<p><em>Finally, do you notice how very nativist this entire idea is? Phillips ignores the fact that the populations in most parts of the world are booming. The trouble is that ourpopulations, the populations of white Western Christendom, face decline. Kathryn Joyce addresses this nativism, especially as connected to Europe, in an excellent article <a href="http://www.thenation.com/article/missing-right-babies">here</a>.</em></p>
<p>Libby&#8217;s conclusion is spot on:</p>
<p><em>Rather than looking no further than my own home, I want to embrace the world and seek global well-being. But more than anything, I am simply glad that I no longer have blinders on telling me that the best thing I can do for the planet and the future is be a baby-making machine.</em></p>
<p>Libby Anne has recently switched &#8220;<a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism" target="_blank">Love, Joy, Feminism</a>&#8221; to FreeThoughBlogs &#8211; be sure to bookmark her new web address.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<p><strong>NLQ Recommends ...</strong></p>

<p><strong> </strong>'<a href="http://t.co/dUxVWO8">Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment</a>' by Janet Heimlich</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/9Wm2c3">Quivering Daughters</a>‘ by Hillary McFarland</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/bAB5He">Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement</a>‘ by Kathryn Joyce</p>
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		<title>Carefully Scripted Lives &#8211; The Real Reality of the Duggar Family &#8220;Blessings&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/02/26/carefully-scripted-lives-the-real-reality-of-the-duggar-family-blessings/</link>
		<comments>http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/02/26/carefully-scripted-lives-the-real-reality-of-the-duggar-family-blessings/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2012 12:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>nolongerquivering</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nolongerquivering.com/?p=16250</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: center;"><span style="color: #008000;"><em><strong><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/?attachment_id=16251" rel="attachment wp-att-16251"><img class="aligncenter  wp-image-16251" title="screen-capture-1" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/screen-capture-1-1024x247.png" alt="" width="717" height="173" /></a></strong></em></span></p>
<p style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #008000;"><em><strong>by Libby Anne</strong></em></span></p>
I can’t say how often I’ve heard ordinary Americans defend Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar and their popular TLC television show, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_Kids_and_Counting">19 Kids and Counting</a>. “I wouldn’t choose to have nineteen kids,” they say, “but if they can manage it, who am I to question their choice?” “The kids look happy and healthy,” they say, “look how polite and well mannered they are.” I hear these comments and I just have to sigh.

First of all, I want to pout out that I would have concerns about the Duggars even if they <em>were</em> your ordinary family plus seventeen extra children. For one thing, there is no way any two parents can give nineteen children the individual attention and time they need. It’s just not feasibly possible. The Duggars like to say that “love multiplies,” but the thing is, <em>time</em> doesn’t. And then, of course, there is the population issue.

But it’s not these things I’m going to discuss here. The fact is, the Duggars aren’t just your ordinary family plus seventeen extra children. There is a great deal of editing that goes into making TV, and one thing that gets edited out are the Duggars’ religious beliefs and their beliefs about child rearing. There is <em>much, much</em> more going on here than you see on TV.

I know this because I grew up in a family very much like the Duggars. We had a third fewer kids and we didn’t have a TV show, but otherwise it was about the same. Our beliefs were nearly identical to theirs, as was our way of living. When I look at the older Duggar girls, I see myself. I was them. With that in mind, I’m going to take a moment to outline nine specific concerns I have about the Duggars.

<strong>1. Isolation and Indoctrination</strong>

The Duggar childern are homeschooled in part in order to shelter them from bad influences, i.e. from other kids and teachers who hold different beliefs or live different sorts of lives. The Duggar kids don’t have friends who aren’t pre-approved by their parents. In fact, the Duggar kids aren’t even involved in church activities – their family participates in a “home church” where they and several other like-minded families get together on Sunday mornings and worship together.

Furthermore, even the older Duggar children are not allowed to go anywhere without having an “accountability partner,” i.e. another sibling, to keep tabs on them. When one of the older boys volunteered at the local fire department, one of his sisters always went with him to keep an eye on him and make sure he didn’t get in trouble.

Another reason the Duggar children are homeschooled is in order to teach them “God’s truth.” This means that they use religious textbooks, creationist science curriculum, etc. I understand that we have this thing called “freedom of religion” in our country, but I also believe that children have a right to an education, and teaching children one side of everything becomes indoctrination rather than education.

Not surprisingly, the Duggars’ computers have internet access limited to about seventy “approved” websites. To get unlimited internet access, the children – even the older ones – have to get a password from their mother and then have another sibling sitting by them watching the screen as they surf the web to make sure they stay out of trouble. The main reason for this is likely to keep the children from viewing internet pornography, but it also helps ensure that they don’t get subversive information or other viewpoints.

<strong>2. Children raising children</strong>

If you think Michelle is the one raising all of those kids, think again. Those older daughters, some of them already adults, are the ones who are actually doing the majority of the cooking, cleaning, and childcare. They are, in effect, raising their younger siblings.

Now I’m not saying Michelle sits back and watches soap operas while the kids work, but rather that with that many children there is simply too much for her to do on her own. She doesn’t have the time or energy to raise her children without her older daughters’ help. And fortunately, because the Duggars homeschool, those older daughters are available to help 24/7.

The Duggars have this thing called the “buddy system.” When each new child is born, that child is assigned to one of the older children. In this way, the older children are responsible for dressing, feeding, and even educating the younger children. Michelle had<a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/04/21/michelle-duggar-to-accept-mother-of-the-year-award-at-vision-forums-triumph-of-life-baby-conference/">this</a> to say about the buddy system:
<blockquote>This house would not work if we didn’t have the buddy system. The older children mentor the younger ones. They help them with their little phonics lessons and games during the day, help them practice their music lessons. They will play with them or help them pick out the color of their outfit that they want to wear that day, and just all of those types of things.</blockquote>
I’m all for siblings helping each other and playing together, but this goes way further than this. This is siblings <em>raising</em> each other. And as we’ll see, this means a lot of sacrifice for the older siblings doing the raising.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: center;"><span style="color: #008000;"><em><strong><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/02/26/carefully-scripted-lives-the-real-reality-of-the-duggar-family-blessings/screen-capture-1-3/" rel="attachment wp-att-16251"><img class="aligncenter  wp-image-16251" title="screen-capture-1" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/screen-capture-1-1024x247.png" alt="" width="717" height="173" /></a></strong></em></span></p>
<p style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #008000;"><em><strong>by Libby Anne</strong></em></span></p>
<p>I can’t say how often I’ve heard ordinary Americans defend Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar and their popular TLC television show, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_Kids_and_Counting">19 Kids and Counting</a>. “I wouldn’t choose to have nineteen kids,” they say, “but if they can manage it, who am I to question their choice?” “The kids look happy and healthy,” they say, “look how polite and well mannered they are.” I hear these comments and I just have to sigh.</p>
<p>First of all, I want to point out that I would have concerns about the Duggars even if they <em>were</em> your ordinary family plus seventeen extra children. For one thing, there is no way any two parents can give nineteen children the individual attention and time they need. It’s just not feasibly possible. The Duggars like to say that “love multiplies,” but the thing is, <em>time</em> doesn’t. And then, of course, there is the population issue.</p>
<p>But it’s not these things I’m going to discuss here. The fact is, the Duggars aren’t just your ordinary family plus seventeen extra children. There is a great deal of editing that goes into making TV, and one thing that gets edited out are the Duggars’ religious beliefs and their beliefs about child rearing. There is <em>much, much</em> more going on here than you see on TV.</p>
<p>I know this because I grew up in a family very much like the Duggars. We had a third fewer kids and we didn’t have a TV show, but otherwise it was about the same. Our beliefs were nearly identical to theirs, as was our way of living. When I look at the older Duggar girls, I see myself. I was them. With that in mind, I’m going to take a moment to outline nine specific concerns I have about the Duggars.</p>
<p><strong>1. Isolation and Indoctrination</strong></p>
<p>The Duggar childern are homeschooled in part in order to shelter them from bad influences, i.e. from other kids and teachers who hold different beliefs or live different sorts of lives. The Duggar kids don’t have friends who aren’t pre-approved by their parents. In fact, the Duggar kids aren’t even involved in church activities – their family participates in a “home church” where they and several other like-minded families get together on Sunday mornings and worship together.</p>
<p>Furthermore, even the older Duggar children are not allowed to go anywhere without having an “accountability partner,” i.e. another sibling, to keep tabs on them. When one of the older boys volunteered at the local fire department, one of his sisters always went with him to keep an eye on him and make sure he didn’t get in trouble.</p>
<p>Another reason the Duggar children are homeschooled is in order to teach them “God’s truth.” This means that they use religious textbooks, creationist science curriculum, etc. I understand that we have this thing called “freedom of religion” in our country, but I also believe that children have a right to an education, and teaching children one side of everything becomes indoctrination rather than education.</p>
<p>Not surprisingly, the Duggars’ computers have internet access limited to about seventy “approved” websites. To get unlimited internet access, the children – even the older ones – have to get a password from their mother and then have another sibling sitting by them watching the screen as they surf the web to make sure they stay out of trouble. The main reason for this is likely to keep the children from viewing internet pornography, but it also helps ensure that they don’t get subversive information or other viewpoints.</p>
<p><strong>2. Children raising children</strong></p>
<p>If you think Michelle is the one raising all of those kids, think again. Those older daughters, some of them already adults, are the ones who are actually doing the majority of the cooking, cleaning, and childcare. They are, in effect, raising their younger siblings.</p>
<p>Now I’m not saying Michelle sits back and watches soap operas while the kids work, but rather that with that many children there is simply too much for her to do on her own. She doesn’t have the time or energy to raise her children without her older daughters’ help. And fortunately, because the Duggars homeschool, those older daughters are available to help 24/7.</p>
<p>The Duggars have this thing called the “buddy system.” When each new child is born, that child is assigned to one of the older children. In this way, the older children are responsible for dressing, feeding, and even educating the younger children. Michelle had<a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2010/04/21/michelle-duggar-to-accept-mother-of-the-year-award-at-vision-forums-triumph-of-life-baby-conference/">this</a> to say about the buddy system:</p>
<blockquote><p>This house would not work if we didn’t have the buddy system. The older children mentor the younger ones. They help them with their little phonics lessons and games during the day, help them practice their music lessons. They will play with them or help them pick out the color of their outfit that they want to wear that day, and just all of those types of things.</p></blockquote>
<p>I’m all for siblings helping each other and playing together, but this goes way further than this. This is siblings <em>raising</em> each other. And as we’ll see, this means a lot of sacrifice for the older siblings doing the raising.</p>
<p><strong>3. Authoritarian discipline</strong></p>
<p>Though they have not directly admitted it, <a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/11/10/but-they-look-so-happy/">there is a lot to indicate</a> that the Duggars follow <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism/category/michael-and-debi-pearl/">Michael and Debi Pearl’s discipline methods</a>. This means they require absolute obedience from their children and see even bad attitudes as signs of disobedience. It also means they use corporal punishment. The Pearls suggest that you begin to spank your children at around six months, and they urge parents to spank a disobedient child until that child submits completely. Complete submission to the parent’s will is the hallmark of the Pearls’ teachings. Here is a quote:</p>
<blockquote><p>If you are just beginning to institute training on an already rebellious child, who runs from discipline and is too incoherent to listen, then use whatever force is necessary to bring him to bay. If you have to sit on him to spank him then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he is surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher, more patiently enduring and are unmoved by his wailing. Defeat him totally. Accept no conditions for surrender. No compromise. You are to rule over him as a benevolent sovereign. Your word is final. (<em>To Train Up A Child,</em> page 49)</p></blockquote>
<p>The Duggars have stated that they use <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanket_training">blanket training</a>. What they do is place a baby on a blanket and tell the baby not to get off. If the baby crawls off, he or she is spanked on the leg, told “no,” and placed back on the blanket. If you do this for long enough, the baby will learn to stay on the blanket, and then you can safely leave the baby there while you cook lunch or school the older ones. This all seems counter to the nature of a naturally curious baby.</p>
<p>Authoritarian discipline shuts off questions and leaves little room for children to explore. The emphasis on obedience overrides anything else, and as I’ve written before, this <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism/2011/11/29/for-your-own-good-the-insidiousness-of-spanking/">can be</a><a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism/2011/12/03/authoritarian-parenting-and-adult-children/">highly</a> <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism/2011/12/02/spanking-fear-and-privileging-obedience/">problematic</a>.</p>
<p><strong>4. Bill Gothard and IBLP</strong></p>
<p>The Duggars are big fans of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gothard">Bill Gothard</a> and are enrolled in his <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_in_Basic_Life_Principles">Institutes for Basic Life Principles</a>. Outside of the circle of his followers, Bill Gothard is <a href="http://www.alternet.org/belief/149921/cultish_christian_leader_teaches_women_should_submit_to_husbands_--_victims_of_his_%22submission_theology%22_speak_out?page=3">frequently regarded</a> as <a href="http://www.batteredsheep.com/gothard.html">a cult leader</a>. He teaches, for instance, that troll dolls delay labor, that cabbage patch dolls are possessed by demons, and that Christians today must follow Old Testament sexual purity codes, including abstaining from sex the evening before weekly worship. Oh, and he teaches that tampons take girls’ virginity.</p>
<p>Until 2002 Gothard ran a group home for delinquent children in Indianapolis, Indiana. Children were sent there by the juvenile justice system for years until <a href="http://www.wthr.com/global/story.asp?s=818906&amp;ClientType=Printable">the place was closed down</a> under allegations of abuse, including Gothard’s notorious “prayer closets.” There has been <a href="http://www.recoveringgrace.org/">a growing movement</a> among young people raised on Gothard’s teachings to expose the abuse, physical, emotional, and spiritual, they suffered at the hand of Gothard and his multiple ministries, including orphanages in places like Russia.</p>
<p>What bothers me most about the Duggars’ involvement with Gothard and IBLP is their use of his “re-education” camps (my term). When Josh Duggar was showing some signs of being “rebellious” years ago, they sent him to Gothard’s military boot camp for young men, the ALERT Academy. He returned much subdued. They’ve done the same with some of the girls, sending them to Gothard’s Journey to the Heart programs, where they are reminded of how wicked and sinful they are and told again and again that following God means obeying their earthly parents.</p>
<p><strong>5. Emotional control</strong></p>
<p>The Duggar children are also taught to carefully control their emotions, and emotions like anger or ingratitude are not acceptable. I’ve often heard people argue in favor of the Duggars by stating that “they look so happy!” <a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/11/10/but-they-look-so-happy/">Here</a> is an excerpt from blogger Dulce, who was raised on the same teachings as the Duggars, dealing specifically with this issue:</p>
<blockquote><p>One of the creepiest things about Gothard and the Pearls is that they teach that happy is the only acceptable emotion.  If you do not have a joyful countenance, you are publicly shaming your authorities.  In other words, if the kid looks unhappy, it is a personal offense against the parents.  Pearl also has nauseating quotes and anecdotes about how any time his kids expressed unhappiness or anger they were hit even harder and longer until they were cheerful.  How twisted is that?  Children are taught from babyhood to always be cheerful, or else they deserve a spanking.  As they grow older, it is not just the fear of a spanking that causes them to keep smiling.  It is the sincere belief that they are sinning with ingratitude, rebellion and more if they don’t present a happy face.</p></blockquote>
<p>As I said earlier that a bad attitude is seen as rebellion, and immediately dealt with. I have no idea whether the Duggar children are happy or not, but I know that if they are unhappy they aren’t allowed to express it, especially for the TV cameras (being a Christian “witness” to the world and all that jazz).</p>
<p><strong>6. A quiver full of expectations</strong></p>
<p>As I said in my <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism/2012/02/18/what-is-quiverfull-an-faq/">introduction</a> to the Quiverfull movement, Quiverfull is more than just seeing children as a gift from God. It’s also about seeing children as potential culture warriors. Children are “arrows” who are to be sent out into the world spreading the gospel and Christian values and replicating their parents beliefs and lifestyles. This mindset leaves little room for children who may differ from their parents or what a different sort of life.</p>
<p>In a family influenced by Quiverfull beliefs, children who embrace different beliefs or ways of life from their parents are seen as failures. The idea is to raise <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism/2011/09/09/michael-pearl-on-children-who-leave/">ideological clones</a>. The amount of <a href="http://lovejoyfeminism.blogspot.com/2011/06/too-great-expectations.html">expectations</a> this places on children is immense. I really don’t know what those older Duggar kids want out of life, but I do know that if they want something different from what their parents want for them they are in for a lot of trouble, a lot of emotional manipulation, and a lot of guilt.</p>
<p><strong>7. A patriarchal family order</strong></p>
<p>The main emphasis in the Christian Patriarchy movement, as I pointed out in my<a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism/2012/02/19/what-is-christian-patriarchy-an-introduction/">introduction</a> to it, is on a hierarchical family order where each member plays his or her role and everyone stays in their place.  As an example, click <a href="http://www.southheightsbaptist.com/mp3/CliffPalmer/7BasicNeeds_Husband.pdf">here</a> and <a href="http://www.southheightsbaptist.com/mp3/CliffPalmer/7BasicNeeds_Wife.pdf">here</a> to see what the teachings the Duggars follow regarding the proper role of the husband and of the wife. The gist is, of course, that the husband is to lead and the wife is to submit.</p>
<p>The main way this plays out for the children is threefold. First, the children are required to obey their parents without exception. Second, the children are being raised for their future roles – the boys are to be providers and protectors and the girls are to be homemakers. They’re taught this from day one. Third, daughters are taught that they must obey their father even after they become adults.</p>
<p>Those older Duggar girls have been taught that they are under their father’s authority, and that they must follow his will for them. His commands are absolute, just as their obedience is to be absolute. By obeying their father, they are preparing for the time when they will similarly obey their future husbands. Furthermore, by staying at home rather than leaving the home to attend college or get a job, they are preparing to spend their lives as homemakers, as mandated by their gender.</p>
<p><strong>8. Courtship, modesty, and purity</strong></p>
<p>Like many Americans, the Duggars teach their children to remain sexually abstinent until marriage. But they go further, teaching that even kissing should wait until the wedding day. Furthermore, virginity is not just physical, it is also <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism/2011/09/10/love-virginity/">emotional</a>. “Giving away pieces of your heart” through crushes or childhood romances is viewed as permanently damaging, and sexual thoughts are strictly forbidden.</p>
<p>The Duggar girls are also taught that they must dress extremely modestly so as not to “tempt” their “brethren in Christ” (why is this always the female’s responsibility?). That is, of course, what is behind their long jean skirts. This sort of emphasis on “modesty” can be damaging to both <a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/11/22/how-modesty-made-me-fat/">girls</a> and <a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2012/02/14/how-the-modesty-doctrine-hurts-men-too/">boys</a>.</p>
<p>In addition, the Duggars believe that their children should find spouses through parent-guided “courtships” rather than through dating. Dating is portrayed as “practice for divorce” rather than more realistically as “practice for carrying out relationships.” I’ll give an overview of what such a courtship looks like below, but for a young woman’s excellent courtship story, which finishes with damning analysis, click <a href="http://ayoungmomsmusings.blogspot.com/2011/02/listen-for-singing-my-courtship-story.html">here</a>.</p>
<p>First a young man goes to a young woman’s father and asks to court her, and the father says either yes or no (or sometimes maybe later). The young woman is given the chance to veto the courtship if she is not interested in the young man. If a young woman has her eye on a guy, she can share that with her father and he can possibly talk to the young man or the young man’s father, but she can’t initiate anything herself.</p>
<p>A courting couple is ever under the watchful eye of parents and other chaperons, and sometimes is not given a chance of privacy at all. The father can call or suspend the courtship off at any time for any reason. Eventually, if the courtship goes well, the young man asks the young woman’s father for permission to marry her, and if he obtains that permission he asks the young woman, and if she says yes a wedding follows almost immediately.</p>
<p><strong>9. No teenagers allowed</strong></p>
<p>Perhaps the most disconcerting thing about the Duggars is that their older children aren’t allowed to be teenagers or make their own choices. You can see this strung throughout this entire post.</p>
<p>The older children spend their teen years raising their younger siblings and are only allowed friends from a small pool of approved families. Their access to the internet is strongly curtailed, and they aren’t allowed to go anywhere without an “accountability partner.” Disobedience or ingratitude is seen as rebellion and dealt with swiftly and immediately, sometimes through one of Gothard’s many “re-education” camps. Extreme modesty is enforced and dating is forbidden. Contact with the opposite sex is watched closely. Adult daughters are expected to obey their father’s will for them, are taught that being a homemaker is their God-mandated role in life, and are only allowed to marry through a courtship controlled by their fathers. Furthermore, teen and adult children are expected to adopt their parents exact beliefs and way of life, and any other option is seen as failure.</p>
<p>All this is seen as a good thing. Just like my parents, you see, the Duggars <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism/2011/09/12/we-dont-do-teenagers/">don’t believe in teenagers</a>. Let me quote myself on this issue:</p>
<blockquote><p>It’s true that the word teenager is less than a hundred years old, and it’s true that our current modern conception of the teenager is new. But the reality is, in our society today, being a teenager is not simply about gossip and boys and a lack of responsibility, it’s about figuring out who you are as an entity separate from your family and their beliefs. Because I was never allowed to be a teenager, I never differentiated myself from my parents at all. I never learned who <em>I </em>was. I was never allowed to.</p>
<p>While I do wish I had been allowed to be a teenager in external trappings – clothes, dating, hanging out at the mall – what I really regret about not being allowed to be a teenager is not the material trappings but rather not ever separating myself and my identity from those of my parents. I wish I had been allowed to be different from them, and encouraged to find my own interests and beliefs. I wish I hadn’t been so enmeshed in my parents’ lives and identities as to lose myself completely.</p></blockquote>
<p>The Duggar children are given no real chance to differentiate from their parents and to explore what they themselves believe and want from life. Instead, they are set off along a prescribed path and are quickly nudged back onto it if they so much as angle to toward the edge. Rather than forging their own paths, the Duggar children are expected to simply follow the path forged by their parents. No questions, no buts, no backtalk.</p>
<p>Have you noticed that all the Duggar girls share one room and all the Duggar boys share another? Michelle said that’s because that’s how the children wanted it – they didn’t want to be separated. That may well be true, but it’s worth noting that when you share your room with your eight sisters, some still toddlers or babies, it’s really hard to find a moment of privacy or a place for sharing secrets.</p>
<p><strong>Conclusion</strong></p>
<p>Most of this stuff doesn’t come across on the TV show, does it? On the TV show the Duggars try to portray themselves as just one big happy family following God’s commands – a witness to others. What you don’t see is that the Duggar children live lives in a fishbowl, carefully scripted lives from which no dissent or differentiation is allowed. Their lives are laid out for them, and growing up is not about exploration but rather fulfilling the expectations of their parents. Conformity is key and stepping out of line is not acceptable.</p>
<p>Bowing to negative publicity, the Duggars recently enrolled some of their children, including the older girls, in <a href="http://www.collegeplus.org/">an online college program</a> highly <a href="http://www.visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/2007/10/3021/">promoted by premier Christian Patriarchy group Vision Forum</a>. This program promises bachelors degrees in as little as two years and has the advantage of keeping the Duggar children safely under their parents’ watchful eyes. Not surprisingly, the girls are interested in studying things like nursing and midwifery. I have no idea whether they’ll actually finish, but it would be great for those older girls if they were able to get college degrees of some sort, because it might open more horizons for them in the future.</p>
<p>As for what’s in the future for the Duggar kids, if all follows their parents’ plans the boys will be set up with careers of some sort and will court girls from like-minded families and then start their own families with a baby at least every other year. We’ve already seen Josh Duggar follow this prescribed path.</p>
<p>The Duggar girls, in contrast, will remain at home until some suitable suitor approaches Jim Bob to ask to court them, and they will then move to their own homes <a href="http://rethinkingvisionforum.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/vision-forum-daughters-college-regret/">to continue their duty as homemakers</a> and begin having numerous children of their own.</p>
<p>If things work out differently, though, and one or more of the Duggar kids strike out on their own, I can only guess how hard things will be for them. And I have to say, the TV cameras and publicity won’t help. I can only wish them the best.</p>
<p><em><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=1541">Discuss this post on the NLQ forum!</a>  Comments are also open below.</em></p>
<p><em>Libby Anne lives with her husband and toddler somewhere in the U.S. She has left patriarchy for feminism and has found freedom. She is a graduate student with big plans for her life. You can read her blog at <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism" target="_blank">Love</a></em><a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism" target="_blank">, Joy, Feminism</a><a href="http://lovejoyfeminism.blogspot.com/">.</a></p>
<h3><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/nlqstories/libby-anne/">Read all posts by Libby Anne!</a></h3>
<p>T<em>his post was originally published at <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/lovejoyfeminism" target="_blank">Love, Joy, Feminism</a>– crossposted by permission.</em></p>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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		<title>But They Look So Happy!</title>
		<link>http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/11/10/but-they-look-so-happy/</link>
		<comments>http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/11/10/but-they-look-so-happy/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>nolongerquivering</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Advance Training Institute (ATI) / Institution for Basic Life Principles (IBLP) (Bill Gothard)]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nolongerquivering.com/?p=15720</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/?attachment_id=15721" rel="attachment wp-att-15721"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-15721" title="The Jim Bob &#38; Michelle Duggar Family" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/screen-capture-11.png" alt="" width="652" height="152" /></a></p>
<em><a href="http://dulcefamily.blogspot.com/2011/11/but-they-look-so-happy.html" target="_blank">Excerpted from Dulce De Leche</a>:</em>

All of the recent news about the Duggar's newest baby spawned a number of online arguments.  One of the most frequent comments was about how cheerful their family is, especially the children.  How Michelle is a great mom who doesn't yell.  It must be working for them, because the kids are well behaved and look happy.  Sounds reasonable, right?

I might believe it, if I didn't know what I know of Gothard/ATI and the Pearls.  The Duggars are deeply enmeshed in ATI, and ATI takes allegiance very seriously.  It isn't a vague Statement of Beliefs that you sign so your kids can take the courses.  It is several pages of in depth info that covers what kind of music you can listen to (no Christian rock), the kind of TV you watch (mainly Christian DVDs), the way you dress (those jumpers are about modesty), the kind of punishments the parents use (spankings), and more.  It isn't just a curriculum--it is a lifestyle that delves into family finances, child planning and every other detail.

There has long been a lot of speculation about whether the Duggars use the controversial punishment methods taught by Michael and Debi Pearl in <a href="http://www.whynottrainachild.com/" target="_blank">To Train Up a Child</a>.  Things like the blanket training, certain phrases that are used, and the general popularity within that subculture have fueled that, as well as many people who claim that it was recommended previously on the website.  I can't prove that they follow TTUAC, but as of yesterday, <a href="http://www.duggarfamily.com/content/amazon_blitz" target="_blank">the Duggar's website included it in their Amazon links along with a glowing recommendation</a>.  Considering that some of the other recommendations list personal details about how the materials were used by the family, I cannot believe that it was randomly included on their site without their approval.

One of the creepiest things about Gothard and the Pearls is that they teach that happy is the only acceptable emotion.  If you do not have a joyful countenance, you are publicly shaming your authorities.  In other words, if the kid looks unhappy, it is a personal offense against the parents.  Pearl also has nauseating quotes and anecdotes about how any time his kids expressed unhappiness or anger they were hit even harder and longer until they were cheerful.  How twisted is that?  These children are taught from babyhood to always be cheerful, or else they deserve a spanking.  As they grow older, it is not just the fear of a spanking that causes them to keep smiling.  It is the sincere belief that they are sinning with ingratitude, rebellion and more if they don't present a happy face.

<p style="text-align: right;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/11/10/but-they-look-so-happy/">Full post ...</a></strong></span></p>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/11/10/but-they-look-so-happy/screen-capture-1-2/" rel="attachment wp-att-15721"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-15721" title="The Jim Bob &amp; Michelle Duggar Family" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/screen-capture-11.png" alt="" width="652" height="152" /></a></p>
<p><em><a href="http://dulcefamily.blogspot.com/2011/11/but-they-look-so-happy.html" target="_blank">Excerpted from Dulce De Leche</a>:</em></p>
<p>All of the recent news about the Duggar&#8217;s newest baby spawned a number of online arguments.  One of the most frequent comments was about how cheerful their family is, especially the children.  How Michelle is a great mom who doesn&#8217;t yell.  It must be working for them, because the kids are well behaved and look happy.  Sounds reasonable, right?</p>
<p>I might believe it, if I didn&#8217;t know what I know of Gothard/ATI and the Pearls.  The Duggars are deeply enmeshed in ATI, and ATI takes allegiance very seriously.  It isn&#8217;t a vague Statement of Beliefs that you sign so your kids can take the courses.  It is several pages of in depth info that covers what kind of music you can listen to (no Christian rock), the kind of TV you watch (mainly Christian DVDs), the way you dress (those jumpers are about modesty), the kind of punishments the parents use (spankings), and more.  It isn&#8217;t just a curriculum&#8211;it is a lifestyle that delves into family finances, child planning and every other detail.</p>
<p>There has long been a lot of speculation about whether the Duggars use the controversial punishment methods taught by Michael and Debi Pearl in <a href="http://www.whynottrainachild.com/" target="_blank">To Train Up a Child</a>.  Things like the blanket training, certain phrases that are used, and the general popularity within that subculture have fueled that, as well as many people who claim that it was recommended previously on the website.  I can&#8217;t prove that they follow TTUAC, but as of yesterday, <a href="http://www.duggarfamily.com/content/amazon_blitz" target="_blank">the Duggar&#8217;s website included it in their Amazon links along with a glowing recommendation</a>.  Considering that some of the other recommendations list personal details about how the materials were used by the family, I cannot believe that it was randomly included on their site without their approval.</p>
<p>One of the creepiest things about Gothard and the Pearls is that they teach that happy is the only acceptable emotion.  If you do not have a joyful countenance, you are publicly shaming your authorities.  In other words, if the kid looks unhappy, it is a personal offense against the parents.  Pearl also has nauseating quotes and anecdotes about how any time his kids expressed unhappiness or anger they were hit even harder and longer until they were cheerful.  How twisted is that?  Children are taught from babyhood to always be cheerful, or else they deserve a spanking.  As they grow older, it is not just the fear of a spanking that causes them to keep smiling.  It is the sincere belief that they are sinning with ingratitude, rebellion and more if they don&#8217;t present a happy face.</p>
<p>You know the whole fake it till you make it idea?  It is pretty effective.  I am sure that there are plenty of times where the kids are genuinely happy.  There are many good things in their lives, and I do believe that the kids are loved.  I am not saying that it is all a sham.  I *do* strongly suspect that the habit of &#8220;joyfulness&#8221; is so deeply ingrained that denying &#8220;ungodly emotions&#8221; such as anger (which comes from not yielding your rights in Gothardspeak) and unhappiness (which is a sinful lack of gratitude) is automatic by now.</p>
<p>For many people who follow Gothard and the Pearls, appearance is everything.  As long as you appear happy, then you must be.  There is also strong pressure to be a <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">salesperson</span> witness.  Your countenance is your <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">sales pitch </span>testimony, and if you present an ugly picture to the world, it is a public shaming of your parents and ultimately your God.  Are <em>you</em> going to be the cause of people in the world turning from Christ?  I have heard women who are part of this mindset justify staying in abusive relationships because &#8220;it would look so bad for a Christian to divorce&#8221;.  Because, you know, God would rather you live a damaging lie and deceive others than expose the truth that even families who claim Him are not perfect.  (Shhhh.  He won&#8217;t know that your marriage is really broken as long as you don&#8217;t sign divorce papers!)  Sorry.  I get sarcastic when I am frustrated.  Please check out <a href="&quot;http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0764207938/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=familiesthatflou&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=217145&amp;creative=399373&amp;creativeASIN=0764207938" target="_blank">Families Where Grace is In Place</a> or <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004V53CNM/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=familiesthatflou&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=217145&amp;creative=399373&amp;creativeASIN=B004V53CNM" target="_blank">Grace Based Living</a> to read more about getting free from curse-filled relationships.</p>
<p>And, lest we forget, there is plenty of editing that goes into a TV show.</p>
<p>So when I hear someone say, &#8220;But they look so happy!&#8221;  I can&#8217;t help but think, &#8220;Of course they do.  They know that happy is the only acceptable emotion in their world.  But is it really happiness when you aren&#8217;t allowed to express anything else?&#8221;</p>
<p><em><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=1251">Discuss this post on the NLQ forum.</a></em> Comments are also open below.</p>
<p>T<em>his post was originally published at <a href="http://dulcefamily.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Dulce De Leche</a> &#8211; crossposted by permission.</em></p>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<p><strong>NLQ Recommends ...</strong></p>

<p><strong> </strong>'<a href="http://t.co/dUxVWO8">Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment</a>' by Janet Heimlich</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/9Wm2c3">Quivering Daughters</a>‘ by Hillary McFarland</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/bAB5He">Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement</a>‘ by Kathryn Joyce</p>
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		<title>The Destiny of a Virtuous Daughter ~ Part 3: Pop Guns &amp; Purity Rings</title>
		<link>http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/10/27/the-destiny-of-a-virtuous-daughter-part-3-pop-guns-purity-rings/</link>
		<comments>http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/10/27/the-destiny-of-a-virtuous-daughter-part-3-pop-guns-purity-rings/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>nolongerquivering</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nolongerquivering.com/?p=15573</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/05/29/the-destiny-of-a-virtuous-daughter-part-2/virtuous-daughter-7-3/" rel="attachment wp-att-11531"><img class="alignleft" title="Virtuous Daughter 7" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Virtuous-Daughter-7.jpg" alt="" width="238" height="384" /></a>
<div><em><strong><span style="color: #008000;">by Starfury</span></strong></em></div>
Growing up, I read books like <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1881545091/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&#38;tag=familiesthatflou&#38;linkCode=as2&#38;camp=217145&#38;creative=399369&#38;creativeASIN=1881545091" target="_blank">The King's Daughter</a>, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0317002678/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&#38;tag=familiesthatflou&#38;linkCode=as2&#38;camp=217145&#38;creative=399369&#38;creativeASIN=0317002678" target="_blank">Dear Princess</a>, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1883934028/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&#38;tag=familiesthatflou&#38;linkCode=as2&#38;camp=217145&#38;creative=399373&#38;creativeASIN=1883934028" target="_blank">Beautiful Girlhood</a>, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1891907034/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&#38;tag=familiesthatflou&#38;linkCode=as2&#38;camp=217145&#38;creative=399373&#38;creativeASIN=1891907034" target="_blank">Waiting for Her Isaac</a>, and <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/189190700X/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&#38;tag=familiesthatflou&#38;linkCode=as2&#38;camp=217145&#38;creative=399369&#38;creativeASIN=189190700X" target="_blank">The Courtship of Sarah MacLean</a> over and over. I would plan out having twenty six children, so I could use every letter of the alphabet when I named them. I would try to devise my own homeschool curriculum based on the ones I had used, and what I liked and didn't like about them. On top of all that, I was writing my own Proverbs 31 devotional.

And yet, somewhere in all of this, I was still punching things into a "computer" on a tree, and yelling for everyone to get out and climb the Jeffries Tubes because of a warp core breach. Rather than make a hoop skirt, I made a Confederate general's uniform for the end of unit celebration. I was almost fifteen, the homeschool convention was happening over my birthday, and I wanted two things: a Vision Forum pop gun, and a purity ring from Generations of Virtue.

I got both.

They probably assumed the pop-gun would do little harm, after all, I had seven brothers and probably wanted to use it on them, until I tired of it and returned to my books and daydreams. The people at the Vision Forum booth looked a little more wary when they saw my dad hand the pop-gun over to me, but I didn't care. After all, I'd grown up fashioning blasters out of Legos with my brothers, so we could play at Star Wars or Star Trek. Now I just had a gun that actually made noise when you shot it!
<p style="text-align: right;"><span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/10/27/the-destiny-of-a-virtuous-daughter-part-3-pop-guns-purity-rings/">Full Post ...</a></strong></span></p>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/05/29/the-destiny-of-a-virtuous-daughter-part-2/virtuous-daughter-7-3/" rel="attachment wp-att-11531"><img class="alignleft" title="Virtuous Daughter 7" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Virtuous-Daughter-7.jpg" alt="" width="238" height="384" /></a></p>
<div><em><strong><span style="color: #008000;">by Starfury</span></strong></em></div>
<p>Growing up, I read books like <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1881545091/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=familiesthatflou&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=217145&amp;creative=399369&amp;creativeASIN=1881545091" target="_blank">The King&#8217;s Daughter</a>, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0317002678/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=familiesthatflou&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=217145&amp;creative=399369&amp;creativeASIN=0317002678" target="_blank">Dear Princess</a>, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1883934028/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=familiesthatflou&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=217145&amp;creative=399373&amp;creativeASIN=1883934028" target="_blank">Beautiful Girlhood</a>, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1891907034/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=familiesthatflou&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=217145&amp;creative=399373&amp;creativeASIN=1891907034" target="_blank">Waiting for Her Isaac</a>, and <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/189190700X/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=familiesthatflou&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=217145&amp;creative=399369&amp;creativeASIN=189190700X" target="_blank">The Courtship of Sarah MacLean</a> over and over. I would plan out having twenty six children, so I could use every letter of the alphabet when I named them. I would try to devise my own homeschool curriculum based on the ones I had used, and what I liked and didn&#8217;t like about them. On top of all that, I was writing my own Proverbs 31 devotional.</p>
<p>And yet, somewhere in all of this, I was still punching things into a &#8221;computer&#8221; on a tree, and yelling for everyone to get out and climb the Jeffries Tubes because of a warp core breach. Rather than make a hoop skirt, I made a Confederate general&#8217;s uniform for the end of unit celebration. I was almost fifteen, the homeschool convention was happening over my birthday, and I wanted two things: a Vision Forum pop gun, and a purity ring from Generations of Virtue.</p>
<p>I got both.</p>
<p>They probably assumed the pop-gun would do little harm, after all, I had seven brothers and probably wanted to use it on them, until I tired of it and returned to my books and daydreams. The people at the Vision Forum booth looked a little more wary when they saw my dad hand the pop-gun over to me, but I didn&#8217;t care. After all, I&#8217;d grown up fashioning blasters out of Legos with my brothers, so we could play at Star Wars or Star Trek. Now I just had a gun that actually made noise when you shot it!</p>
<p>I spent hours trying to decide on a purity ring. I wanted one with meaning, and I wanted it to be pretty. Besides, the more time I spent there, the more likely I was to convince my parents that I really wanted the newest Ludy book. After we picked up the purity ring, my dad and I had a talk about what it meant. I told him what I wanted, and I promised to remain pure until marriage.</p>
<p>Looking back, I wonder why I was promising things at 14 that were so far in the future. I was blissfully ignorant of the concept of ideas and people changing, and in my naivete, I assumed that what I thought on that day would still hold true in 5 years. Even if it didn&#8217;t, I had the guilt of breaking promises hanging over my head.</p>
<p><em><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=1214"><br />
Discuss this post on the NLQ forum!</a></em></p>
<h3><strong><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/nlqstories/starfury/">Read all posts by Starfury</a></strong></h3>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<p><strong>NLQ Recommends ...</strong></p>

<p><strong> </strong>'<a href="http://t.co/dUxVWO8">Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment</a>' by Janet Heimlich</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/9Wm2c3">Quivering Daughters</a>‘ by Hillary McFarland</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/bAB5He">Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement</a>‘ by Kathryn Joyce</p>
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		<title>Vyckie Garrison on the Thom Hartmann &#8220;radio&#8221; show</title>
		<link>http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/09/21/vyckie-garrison-on-the-thom-hartmann-radio-show/</link>
		<comments>http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/09/21/vyckie-garrison-on-the-thom-hartmann-radio-show/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Sep 2011 19:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>nolongerquivering</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[A Woman's Choice]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Be Fruitful & Multiply / God's Vision for Families by Nancy Campbell]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[If I'd have known this interview was going to be available on YouTube video, I'd have sat up straight, fixed my hair, and put on some jewelry. Pay no attention to me rocking in my rocker as I speak ... at least I wasn't in my bathrobe. LOL

<object width="420" height="315" classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/K9Z9uJ7gvyw?version=3&#38;hl=en_US" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><embed width="420" height="315" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/K9Z9uJ7gvyw?version=3&#38;hl=en_US" allowFullScreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" /></object>

It was a very quick 10 minutes of fame - which made it difficult to accurately represent what Christian patriarchy and Quiverfull are really about ... :S]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I&#8217;d have known this interview was going to be available on YouTube video, I&#8217;d have sat up straight, fixed my hair, and put on some jewelry. Pay no attention to me rocking in my rocker as I speak &#8230; at least I wasn&#8217;t in my bathrobe. LOL</p>
<p><object width="420" height="315" classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/K9Z9uJ7gvyw?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><embed width="420" height="315" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/K9Z9uJ7gvyw?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" allowFullScreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" /></object></p>
<p>It was a very quick 10 minutes of fame &#8211; which made it difficult to accurately represent what Christian patriarchy and Quiverfull are really about &#8230; :S</p>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<p><strong>NLQ Recommends ...</strong></p>

<p><strong> </strong>'<a href="http://t.co/dUxVWO8">Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment</a>' by Janet Heimlich</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/9Wm2c3">Quivering Daughters</a>‘ by Hillary McFarland</p>
<p>‘<a href="http://amzn.to/bAB5He">Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement</a>‘ by Kathryn Joyce</p>
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		<title>&#8220;Taking Her Myself&#8221; A New Trend in Quiverfull Courtship/Betrothal</title>
		<link>http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/09/10/taking-her-myself-a-new-trend-in-quiverfull-courtshipbetrothal/</link>
		<comments>http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/09/10/taking-her-myself-a-new-trend-in-quiverfull-courtshipbetrothal/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 17:39:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>nolongerquivering</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://nolongerquivering.com/?p=14091</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[by Vyckie Garrison &#8220;Does God Hate Women?&#8221; author, Ophelia Benson recently shared a note which was posted on Reddit written by a young patriarch describing his &#8220;biblical marriage.&#8221;  As Bible-believing Baptists who hold to reformed theology, X and I believe that God is sovereign in choosing who will or will not believe in him, having chosen his <a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/09/10/taking-her-myself-a-new-trend-in-quiverfull-courtshipbetrothal/"><b>Full post ...</b></a>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/2011/09/10/taking-her-myself-a-new-trend-in-quiverfull-courtshipbetrothal/caveman-couple1/" rel="attachment wp-att-14092"><img class="alignleft size-full wp-image-14092" title="caveman-couple1" src="http://nolongerquivering.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/caveman-couple1.gif" alt="" width="156" height="195" /></a><span style="color: #008000;"><em><strong>by Vyckie Garrison</strong></em></span></p>
<p>&#8220;<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0826498264/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=familiesthatflou&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=217145&amp;creative=399381&amp;creativeASIN=0826498264">Does God Hate Women?</a><img style="border: none !important; margin: 0px !important;" src="http://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=familiesthatflou&amp;l=as2&amp;o=1&amp;a=0826498264&amp;camp=217145&amp;creative=399381" alt="" width="1" height="1" border="0" />&#8221; author, Ophelia Benson <a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2011/09/after-mutual-foot-washing/">recently shared</a> <a href="http://imgur.com/aVn40">a note</a> which was <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/k7aaz/my_brothers_friends_fiancee_sent_this_letter_out/">posted on Reddit</a> written by a young patriarch describing his &#8220;biblical marriage.&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p> As Bible-believing Baptists who hold to reformed theology, X and I believe that God is sovereign in choosing who will or will not believe in him, having chosen his people before the foundation of the world (see Ephesians 1), and that his selection is unbreakable and irresistible. If marriage is to mirror this principle, we believe that a woman has no right to select a husband for herself, but that she is to be chosen by a man and marriage is to be an unbreakable arrangement between the man and her father. Based on this reasoning, we have shunned a standard proposal and wedding ceremony, because if I had asked her to marry me (which I did not) then I would have given her the decision to marry me rather than selecting her and taking her myself. Furthermore, if we had exchanged conventional marriage vows, our union would have been based on X’s will and consent, which are not Biblical factors for marriage or salvation. Instead, I asked X’s father for his blessing in taking her hand in marriage. When he gave his blessing, X and I considered ourselves to be unbreakably betrothed in the sight of God. While we had initially intended to consummate our marriage after today’s symbolic ceremony, we instead did so secretly after private scripture reading, prayer, and mutual foot-washing.</p></blockquote>
<p>PZ Meyers commented on Pharyngula, &#8220;<a href="http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/09/09/it-made-my-skin-crawl/">It made my skin crawl</a>.&#8221;  Yeah &#8211; mine too.</p>
<p>As Quiverfull Believers dig ever-deeper into their Bibles in search of the truly &#8220;biblical model&#8221; for godly marriage, ideas about courtship and &#8220;betrothal&#8221; are becoming increasingly savage and brutish.  It would seem unlikely that Courtship standards could get even more oppressive considering that Christian notions of &#8220;biblical match-making&#8221; have already been taken to outrageous extremes.</p>
<p>Josh Harris started a back-to-bible-living revolution among Christian young people when he advocated the courtship model in his book, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590521358/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;tag=familiesthatflou&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;camp=217145&amp;creative=399381&amp;creativeASIN=1590521358">I Kissed Dating Goodbye</a><img style="border: none !important; margin: 0px !important;" src="http://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=familiesthatflou&amp;l=as2&amp;o=1&amp;a=1590521358&amp;camp=217145&amp;creative=399381" alt="" width="1" height="1" border="0" />. What &#8211; no dating for teens? Now that&#8217;s a radical concept! As &#8220;bible believers&#8221; jumped on the bandwagon of father-led pairing of qualified young men and women in serious pursuit of marriage, popular Quiverfull patriarchs took biblical courtship to a new level of paternal domination as they pointed to Old Testament examples of &#8220;betrothal&#8221; as the very best way to ensure the future success of Christian marriage.</p>
<p>Jonathan Lindvall, teaching &#8220;God&#8217;s Design for Youthful Romance,&#8221; cited the <a href="http://www.lifeandlibertyministries.com/archives/000151.php">betrothal of Matthew and Maranatha Chapman</a> as an ideal example of a &#8220;true romantic betrothal.&#8221;  Lindvall describes the crazy-making process by which Maranatha&#8217;s father, Stan Owen, orchestrated a year-long betrothal which was to be a &#8220;demonstration of Christ&#8217;s coming for His bride&#8221; based on the parable of the Ten Virgins.</p>
<blockquote><p>Mr. Owen still faithfully directed both Matthew and Maranatha to avoid physical affection until their wedding. He particularly cautioned them to guard against impatience. Especially since Maranatha was rather young, their wedding might be quite a long way off yet. Though they hoped that the time would be soon, they nevertheless resigned themselves to the real possibility that the wedding could be a matter of years down the road, much like Jacob&#8217;s seven year betrothal to Rachel (Gen. 29:18-20). Yet they were both naturally quite motivated and energetically prepared in every way they could, as quickly as they could, just in case the wedding should suddenly be announced.</p></blockquote>
<p>Not to be outdone in the &#8220;biblical examples of courtship and marriage&#8221; department, Michael Pearl <a href="http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/general-view/archive/2004/july/23/the-wedding/">counseled his daughter, Shoshanna, to forego a state-issued marriage license</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>None of my daughters or their husbands asked the state of Tennessee for permission to marry. They did not yoke themselves to government. It was a personal, private covenant, binding them together forever—until death. So when the sodomites have come to share in the state marriage licenses, which will eventually be the law, James and Shoshanna will not be in league with those perverts. And, while I am on the subject, there will come a time when faithful Christians will either revoke their state marriage licenses and establish an exclusively one man-one woman covenant of marriage, or, they will forfeit the sanctity of their covenant by being unequally yoked together with perverts. The sooner there is such a movement, the sooner we will have a voice in government. Some of you attorneys and statesmen reading this should get together and come up with an approach that will have credibility and help to impact the political process.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yeah &#8230; that&#8217;s &#8220;bible-believing&#8221; extremism for you &#8211; and it&#8217;s not enough to practice these ideals for themselves and their children, &#8220;biblical family values&#8221; must become the law of the land.</p>
<p>As a former Quiverfull believer, I used to get excited at the prospect of searching the Word and discovering greater &#8220;truths&#8221; and biblical principles &#8211; the implementation of which would bring my family increasingly closer to a truly God-honoring model of marriage and Christian home life.  At the same time, I secretly dreaded what the Lord might reveal to me next through Lindvall&#8217;s Bold Christian Living, Pearl&#8217;s No Greater Joy, and other &#8220;biblical family living&#8221; ministries.  Already I was obediently and faithfully having baby after baby to the obvious detriment of my health, submitting to my abusive husband, homeschooling, homebirthing, home churching, foregoing all government assistance including potentially life-saving health insurance and food stamps, cutting off all outside relationships with family and friends who were not like-minded Quiverfull Believers &#8230;. honestly, the regimentation and isolation made for a harsh and demanding life.</p>
<p>&#8220;What&#8217;s next?&#8221; I frequently wondered to myself &#8230; &#8216;cuz my practice of Quiverfull was not &#8220;peculiar&#8221; enough already, I guess.</p>
<p>I am so grateful that I got out before I had a chance to &#8220;<a href="http://www.politicususa.com/en/scammed-family-values">discover</a>&#8221; the biblical principle of a man selecting and taking a wife for himself.  I am afraid, since the idea comes straight from scripture, I very well may have gone along with my daughters&#8217; father coming to an &#8220;unbreakable arrangement&#8221; for a &#8220;godly&#8221; young man to &#8220;take them&#8221; in marriage.</p>
<p>Ugh.  It is a trap &#8211; a life-sucking quagmire &#8211; to attempt to order one&#8217;s family life according to a worldview which teaches that whatever is in the bible is necessarily &#8220;biblical&#8221; and normative for all times and all cultures.  I dread the thought that today&#8217;s Quiverfull daughters are now being taught that a young Christian woman &#8220;has no right to select a husband for herself, but that she is to be chosen by a man&#8221; and given no decision in the convenant agreement between her father and the man who will be taking her.</p>
<p><em><a href="http://nolongerquivering.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=1115">Discuss this post on the NLQ forum</a></em>. Comments are also open below.</p>
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