by Vyckie
Q: What is “Quiverfull?”
“Quiverfull” is a convenient, though I believe, somewhat unfortunate term which we’re using at No Longer Quivering to describe a family lifestyle which is growing in popularity among evangelical Christians ~ particularly those who home educate their children.
Quiverfull ~ is the idea that truly godly families will “trust the Lord” with their family planning. Children are viewed as unmitigated blessings (“As arrows in the hand of the mighty man, so are the children of ones youth, happy is the man who hath his quiver full of them”) and as such, the couple is willing to have as many children as the Lord chooses to bless them with. Artificial or chemical birth control such as the Pill or IUDs are equated with abortion ~ the sin of murdering your own offspring. “Natural” birth control such as Natural Family Planning is not actually “natural” because a couple must abstain at the very time of the month when the woman is naturally more desirous of physical intimacy. All methods of “conception control” is considered a lack of trust in God to provide for the “children of the righteous.”
Here’s how I described “Quiverfull” back when I still believed it:
Radically Pro-Life – A.K.A. “Quiverfull,” “allowing the Lord to plan our family,” or “trusting God with our family planning.” It is this ideal which has resulted in our having quite a few more than the average number of children. Why do Christians seek to limit the size of their families through the use of chemical birth control? The truth be told, our reasoning generally parallels that of the abortion culture – additional children will cause inconvenience, financial hardships, lifestyle constraints – all this coupled with the desire to separate sex from procreation. How can the Church expect to speak with any moral authority on the evils of abortion when we ourselves are guilty of the very anti-life values fueled by the family planning mentality?
I say that the term “Quiverfull” is “unfortunate” because, I don’t believe that many who are involved in this lifestyle would label themselves as “Quiverfull” ~ and also because it implies a special focus on the anti-birth control aspect of the lifestyle which is not necessarily primary among those who have adopted some or all of the beliefs associated with what might more aptly be called “the Christian family renewal movement” or the practice of “biblical family values.”
(A mouthful, I know ~ which is why we continue to refer to this lifestyle as “Quiverfull” and often “QF/P” to include the patriarchal teachings as well.)
Q. Is “Quiverfull” a denomination?
“Quiverfull” is NOT a denomination ~ those families which are involved are not required to ascribe to any particular doctrinal beliefs ~ you will find “Quiverfull” families in many different denominations, though they seem to be most heavily represented in more fundamentalist denominations (Baptist, “non-denominational,” Church of Christ/Disciples of Christ, etc.) as well as churches with Postmillenial/Dominionist leanings (“Orthodox Presbyterian,” for example) and especially among home fellowships.
The teachings of the Quiverfull lifestyle are spread primarily through the Christian home school movement. Many of the publishing companies which cater to the curriculum needs of the Christian home school community also publish and promote materials which address lifestyle choices regarding biblical family structure, roles, and practices.
A few of the most popular of these suppliers include:
Quiverfull ideals are also promoted through magazines which are popular among homeschoolers including:
Wisdom’s Gate Publications: Home School Digest / Encouraging Word
There are also several websites/ministries which are led by teens who are promoting the Quiverfull family values to Christian youth:
Christian parents who attend their local home school curriculum fair will find at least as much family-oriented materials as they do academic curriculum. Workshop speakers are as likely to talk about “How a wife can use reverence to build or save her marriage” as they are to teach parents how to help their high school-aged students learn advanced mathematics.
Q. What are the basic “family values” teachings which are frequently adopted by “Quiverfull” families?
Along with the idea of “trusting the Lord” in the area of family planning, here are some of the “values” which are promoted among QF/P families:
Patriarchy ~ this is the belief that by God’s perfect design, it is the father who is the head of the home ~ in his leadership capacity, the father serves as protector, provider and shepherd for his wife and children. He is primarily responsible for the wife’s and children’s physical, emotional and spiritual well-being and with such responsibility comes the (divinely granted) commensurate authority over the members of his household. According to this view, God works through the father and he serves as an intermediary for his wife and children. Honor, obedience and submission are highly valued qualities because they are necessary to maintain order and work together to accomplish the Lord’s vision for a godly family.
Courtship or Betrothal instead of dating ~ the father’s protection of and authority over his children extends especially to the choosing of a mate. In this system, the fathers play a very influential role in the “courtship” process. Every family seems to have its own take on exactly how courtship is to be carried out. Typically, if a young man is interested in a particular girl, he will consult with his father who then approaches the father of the young lady to discuss the possibility of a potential match. If the girl’s father is in agreement, he will then talk to his daughter ~ and if she shows an interest, the courtship (or betrothal ~ which is as binding as marriage) begins and this basically means that the couple is serious about getting married. The parents are in control of the relationship at all times. The couple is not to be alone together. The courtship / betrothal period is usually brief and it is expected that the couple will experience their first kiss at the marriage altar. At that time, the father’s authority over the daughter is transferred to her new husband.
Sheltering of the children ~ the home school mindset includes the basic belief that children are to be protected and sheltered from “the world” ~ outside influences which could be detrimental to the child’s spiritual well-being. It is often quoted that “foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child” ~ this coupled with the scripture which says, “a companion of fools shall be ruined,” leads to the logical conclusion that children (fools) should not be socialized by other children (fools) ~ but instead should learn social skills from adults. Isolation and control of outside influences is not only considered normal and good ~ it is the godly approach to childrearing.
Biblical Manhood and Womanhood ~ the teaching is that God designed males and females to fulfill distinct roles and that men and women cannot be truly satisfied unless they are consistently filling their special role as a man or woman of God. Men are to be leaders, teachers, initiators, protectors and providers. Women are created to be “helpmeets” to the men in authority over them (husbands, fathers, older brothers) ~ they are to be submissive and yielding. Their primary sphere of influence comes from their role as wives and mothers. The woman’s home is her ministry and her children are her mission field.
Being debt-free and independent of government programs/subsidies ~ adoption of this ideal often leads to financial hardship and deprivation in large families. In order to achieve financial independence, a QF/P family will often move to a rural location or live in sub-standard housing. Wives often operate businesses out of their home, often employing the children to help with the work, in order to supplement the husband’s income. Refusal of government assistance sometimes means that these families go without medical insurance ~ a situation which can influence the parents to choose “natural remedies,” home birth, and similar non-medical approaches to family health.
Home Church / Family-Integrated Church ~ because the family (primarily the father) is seen as the primary conveyor of spiritual guidance and teaching, QF/P families often seek fellowship with like-minded families in a setting which is not age-segregated. The children worship and learn alongside their parents and peer-interaction is closely monitored by the adults / young adults who are present.
Modesty ~ a girl or woman whose clothing is “revealing” is guilty of “defrauding” her Christian “brother” ~ because she is tempting him with impure thoughts in relation to a body (hers) which is not rightfully his to possess. Quiverfull females often wear dresses only ~ many will also wear a head covering as a sign of a woman’s submission to her “head” ~ that is, her husband.
Not all Quiverfull families subscribe to all of the family values listed above ~ and not all accept and practice these teachings to the same degree. There are Quiverfull families which do not home school. There are Quiverfull couples who, while paying lip-service to the “husband as head” mandate, in actual practice are much more egalitarian (mutual submission) when it comes to the decision-making process.
Generally the longer a Christian family is involved in the home school community, the more deeply they become involved in this “family values” lifestyle ~ it is a process which transforms a “normal” family into a patriarchal cult completely at odds with the general population. In fact, the more “peculiar” (set apart) the family becomes, the more they consider themselves “true believers” following “the narrow way” as opposed to their neighbors who are on the “broad path which leads to destruction.”
Michelle says, Never enough babies!
It’s unfortunate that there are individuals who feel the compulsion to set up hatesites to bash things they disagree or are at odds with.
I know several “quiverfull” families, as you call them, and while I do not subscribe to their ideals of a large family, I have seen them in their natural environment with their children, I have seen them around other families and out in public, and to be fair, they are very well rounded, loving people who choose to have many children, not because they think they will be saved by it or it’s “God’s will” but because they simply LOVE children. All 3 of the families I know that have 6 or more children all make sure they spend time with each one, teaching and nurturing each one on their individual level. And while, as I’ve said, I am not one to choose this lifestyle, being around them does not provoke any sense of “cult” or strange “patriarchy” that you speak of. In fact, one of the families has a very…let’s say…spirited mother who would never in this life or the next lay down and let her husband walk all over her. They simply. love. their. children.
On the issue of grouping all people into “quiverfull” or “fundamentalist” groups because they choose to either A. have more children than you or I would be able to handle, B. homeschool, C. homebirth, or D. be debt free (UM, hello, most Americans would LOVE to be debt free), I am both a homeschooler and a home-birther. I am neither a fundamentalist nor am I a quiverfull movement subscriber. I am a Christian, but I lean more left than I do right (and actually FOLLOW the words of Christ by loving ALL people and not judging them)! I am a midwife and a naturopath and hold a doctorate. I would consider myself a very highly educated person who makes informed decisions with my children and my own health and well being.
We chose homeschooling because when my son started kindergarten, he was already reading. After 3 months of public school education, my son no longer had an interest in learning, forgot most of what he had already learned before starting school, was picking up all kind of “colorful” words and acting out in a way he never had before. We live in a very beautiful, quaint town where the crime rate is next to nil and the families all know each other. No one ever feels the need to lock their car when shopping in town. Toward the end of the school year we received information from the school that two 1st grade boys were caught under the play set in the play yard engaging in “invasive” sexual acts (I am trying to not be so graphic in my description). That was the decision maker for me. My son’s next year, we decided to homeschool. My husband and I sat down and discussed it at length and decided that a our son (or daughter for that matter) attending a sub-par school to get a sub-par education was not worth the potential life altering traumatic experiences he could face(and that children face every single day across the US).
Once he started homeschooling again, we got our happy, free spirited, respectful, loving son back! We enrolled him in a program which is fully accredited (so if he wants to be a Dr, like his mother, one day, he will be able to) academy, and costs about $1000 per annum per child–which requires group studies, interaction with other children etc etc. Our son is so far beyond his “grade level” (they insisted on putting him in the same grade level as everyone his own age so he was not “different” than the other kids and he would “fit in”) and it was a great injustice to him to be mindlessly molded to fit in their little boxes they expect every other child to conform to…
I could go on for hours more! But I will spare you. About the choice to homebirth, how the experience changed our lives in so many AMAZING ways, how “natural medicine” saved the life of my uncle who was terminally ill with cancer, which inspired me to become an ND.
My whole point to this unorganized rambling is that it is unfair to judge people just because they subscribe to a different belief system than you do OR because you once were in a bad situation that involved that particular belief system. NOT ALL quiverfull families are “cultish’ THOUGH I KNOW there are countless ones that are. NOT ALL homeschooling families do it to shelter their children, though I know there are many who do. NOT ALL homebirthing parents choose that route because they are financially impaired. NOT ALL Christians are Bible thumping, judge mental a-holes out to whack you in the head with a Bible or point their finger in your face our propagate hatred toward people who don’t believe the way they do….but I know there are MANY who do…
Don’t do as they do and bring yourself to their level and judge others because they believe differently than you do. Find peace with in yourself and make a NEW way for yourself if you don’t believe with how you were raised, and be content and at peace within that . But don’t point the finger of hate at others because they choose to have many children or home school or….etc etc….
To provide a place where women who have been spiritually abused is a fantastic outreach for someone of your position. Please stop the generalization. Please make a comparison between abusive large families with the agenda of control and “righteousness” and the large families who are normal and loving…just different than others. To not make the contrast or to generalize is hurtful, hateful and offensive and, I would even venture to say, propaganda as many people who don’t understand this lifestyle will now group all large families into “cults”. Unfair.
To not make the contrast or to generalize is hurtful, hateful and offensive
****************
See, I find this so ironic. The article, and this site, are based on generalizations.
You don’t agree that marginalising women into doemstic slavery is hurtful, hateful or offensive?
WONDERFUL!!! THIS THIS THIS!!! I love much of what I have seen on this site but it also seems as if there has been quite a bit of “grouping” per say. We are Jesus loving, God obeying, two child, homeschooling, cloth diapering, mostly mutual submission house hold. We discuss everything together and usually reach a mutual decision TOGETHER although in the rare event that we do not my spouse is the HOH and does make the decision. I was married once before and it was horrible. I was treated like a cow that was purchased and used however he saw fit. I submitted blindly. In the end my anger and rage gave me the strength the leave. There is quite a difference between broken painful submission to a hate filled tyrant and a joyful peace filled relationship. The submission to my spouse is not like most minds perceive it to be but instead a safe harbor. I have seen what submission should NOT be and what the Lord intended it to be!
“There is quite a difference between broken painful submission to a hate filled tyrant and a joyful peace filled relationship. The submission to my spouse is not like most minds perceive it to be but instead a safe harbor. I have seen what submission should NOT be and what the Lord intended it to be!”
So you don’t like being an independent being. That’s your choice — just quit trying to inflict it on me.
well said…no human should have to submit to another in such a way…reprehensible….
If you and your husband are mutually submitting to one another as it talks about in Ephesians, that is one thing. However, your words that your submission to your husband is a safe harbor makes me think not. I know you probably love God and are trying to go by scriptural principles, but I believe you are not looking at the the whole counsel of God.
There is only one safe harbor. It isn’t your husband or any human being. Your husband may be a wonderful God-loving man but he WILL fail you because he, like you, is human. So he is not so safe after all.
Not surprisingly, no scripture says your husband is a safe harbor. If you read that into the text, you are mistaken.
The Bible teaches there is one mediator, one safe harbor, one high priest. That is Jesus. Don’t put any man in the place of Christ.
Okay doctor…Did you get a doctorate of BS from Bob Jones University because you are clearly not doing much with it if you are homeschooling your children…
Most homeschooling families I know are not quiver-full supporters. However; if a husband and wife are in agreement in this area and are supporting their family financially, spiritually and emotionally, I don’t see that it is anyone’s business. I don’t agree however with the “parentizing” of the older kids. I can see them helping with chores, but mom and dad gave birth to the kids and the siblings should not be primary care givers.
so true!
For a “doctor” it does not appear that you were able to read this blog critically. I never for one moment felt the author was referring to all (or a majority of) large families, all (or a majority of) homeschooling families or all (or a majority of)home birthing families. Not only were those claims not made, they were never implied. I think you are too sensitive and not utilizing a logical examination of the author’s argument.
It’s not hate- it’s discernment- you have no idea the bondage they put on you and on sweet daughters with a dream
to amend my last statement: “to provide a place where women who have been spiritually abused to come and relate and heal and find peace, is a fantastic outreach”
Something smells funny…oh yeah this guy is NOT a real doctor, just some enraged christian fundie hack, who wants to lure vulnerable women backinto the cult with calls of “hey its not really bad”
Hi. Love your blog! After reading your description of what quiverfull is, I guess we were part of it and didn’t even know it! We did (and still do) use birth control but left that hellish life behind a few years ago, thank God! Anyway, you listed some organizations that are involved in promoting these views so I thought I’d mention the group we were part of, Sovereign Grace Ministries. Actually, Joshua Harris pastors the mother church in Gaithersburg MA and it is his younger brothers who have the rebelution website. Feel free not to publish this comment if you’re uncomfortable with me sharing these details… Anyway, God Bless! I know God is using you to help women and their families find the freedom Jesus intends, and GRACE.
You forgot to mention all the Muslim families that are migrating to the west and having quiverfull HOUSEHOLD run by one controlling man, all on welfare programs and planning to take over your country THE USA AND EVENTULLY THE WHOLE WORLD…. and when they put YOU under the SHARIAA LAW you be happier than when you were living as a GODLY guiverful wife and mother!!!!!!!!!!!!! I promise you they WILL HUNT YOU DOWN and cut your fingers for writing anything against them, or may be slash your throut for blabbing your mouth too much………………..I come from a muslim country and know what I am talking about!!!!!!!!!!
see what you are doing in this SICK blog is NOT helping, you know it and I know it, all you are looking for is to become POPULER, and have the donate botton on your blog milking some stupid simple minded mothers and wives to give YOU $$$$$$$$$, THROUGH PREACHING SATANIC AGENDA, YOU ARE A WOLFE IN SHEEPS CLOTHING!!!!!!!!! by the way you created this blog to go against GOD, and no one els, because you know the quiverfull life style is from GOD’S WORD THE BIBLE, and trusting GOD with all our affairs is from GOD’S WORD TOO, you fooled yourself thinking you are freed, but the reality is you put yourself under a a very crul and unjust MASTER, his name is the DEVIL, and he is not going to be kind and loving like God is, AND YOU ARE braking families and pulling as many dumb women down with you as can reach.
I do not have a quiverfull, I wish I did.., but the life of sin and misiry left me so broken and weakend That I can not have any more children, I only have 2 children, at 45 but I do know many families that are quiverful families and yes they are NOT perrrrrrrrrrfect families LIKE YOURS!, but I know they are very loving and always trying to do the best for thier children, society, and the world in large, and I would much rather be surrounded by those quiveful, CHRISTIANS and simple families than abunch MUSLIMS SAVAGES the only reason for them to live is to murder an infedle like you!!!!!!!!!!
I am sorry for my NOT very sweet comment but if you grow up where I did and saw what I have seen you would understand where I am coming from…….
So now tell me what is all wrong with the “basic “family values” teachings” of the quiverful families you listed above?
you would probebly much rather prefer the MUSLIM OR THE HOMOSEXUAL “family values” THAN the once you listed above. Please go and get educated about them because they are coming to your town if they are not there yet, and pretty soon take controll of your life and the life your children and grandchildren!!!!
you ended your post with this paragraph
“Generally the longer a Christian family is involved in the home school community, the more deeply they become involved in this “family values” lifestyle ~ it is a process which transforms a “normal” family into a patriarchal cult completely at odds with the general population. In fact, the more “peculiar” (set apart) the family becomes, the more they consider themselves “true believers” following “the narrow way” as opposed to their neighbors who are on the “broad path which leads to destruction.” ”
the word “peculiar”, “set a part”,” the narrow way” “broad path which leads to destruction.”come from the BIBLE, GOD’S WORD, so you see your rejection, rebelion, hate, judgment, belliteling is against HIM, and no one els.
I thank GOD regulerly for helping me see there was quiverful families, they taught me so much, and enriched my broken life, and yes I would take the advice of any quivering wife and mother any day over your hericies.
Stop trying to steel the glory from the beautiful Dugger family, you will not get nowwhere!!!!
In conclusion I must try to help you because I am a Christian and MY duty is to share the everlasting love AND THE FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE WITH YOU THAT YOU CAN ONLY GET FROM HIM ALONE, so if you are not 100% sure if you died you would have a home in heaven then please read the three ABC points below and search your heart ,
1. A… Admit you are a sinner
for all have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD.Rom 3:23
2.Believe that JESUS died on the cross to pay for you sin and went to HELL in your place, so you do not have to go there, and rose again and purchased for you eternal life.
But God commendeth his love towards us in that while we were yet sinners CHRIST died for us.Rom 5:8
3.Confess Jesus as your LORD AND SAVIOR. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart the God hath raised him from thr dead, thou shalt be saved.Rom10:9
Now if you are allready saved, then you must be a backslidden, rebelious, bitter, and just down right full of hate Christian, that is by choice inslaved yourself to the most crule, dangerous, and distructive MASTER ever, THE DEVIL, in that case I humbly and prayerfully beg you to turn around and take your life back from him and commit to serving the ALMIGHTY GOD, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, so you do not suffer shame at his coming and lose your rewards in heaven.
AND FOR JESUS NAME AND HIS SAKE TAKE DOWN THIS BLOG AND TRY TO RESTORE LIVES INSTEAD OF BRAEKING THEM.
you probebly are not going to publish my comment, but if you do you are considered one brave woman………..
Helen,
You are right about one thing, Vyckie is a brave woman, not because she published your crazy comment, but because she had the guts to leave an abusive, misogynistic, patriarchal life and stand up for her own rights. If you think that Christians who think they can control women by keeping them pregnant like some kind of breeding stock are any less dangerous or abusive than Muslims, you are deluded. ANY society that seeks to control women by putting a value on the state of their hymen or the number of babies they squeeze out, is morally reprehensible. Please wake up and stop aiding the abusers.
The fact that people like you exist, Helen, make me fear for the world.
I don’t even know where to begin. Just… wow.
Maybe learn how to spell and use correct punctuation. Then get on some anti-psychotics.
Helen,
This website is obviously not for you. Those of us who grew up with no voice and no personal worth really DO appreciate what Vyckie is doing by having this website and blog.
Yes, there are wonderful families who are very large, but having lots of kids is not a mark of spirituality!
I hope that you allow God to heal your heart from the painful past.
Ruth
Helen, if this is what you call loving Christianity, KEEP IT!
Helen,
There is help for you…mental help. All you need to do is ask. You don’t have to live in all this hate and sadness.
Helen, ever read “Love thy neighbor as you would love thyself” in the Bible?
Check out http://www.liberalslikejesus.org. Very insightful website that argues that if Jesus were alive today, he would be a liberal.
Jesus would never be okay with stealing from the rich to give to the poor. He wasn’t okay with charity for people who didn’t work for themselves, either.
Thessalonians 3:6-15 6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. 9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. 12Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living. 13 As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
What in the world does that have to do with real liberalism? Sounds like a straw man argument to me.
Misappropreation of ancient text to support a modern political veiw? I can do that too!
Acts 2:44-45 All the believers joined together and shared everything in common; they sold their possessions and goods and divided the proceeds among the fellowship according to individual need.
Acts 4:32,34-35 (NIV) All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
Luke 3:11 (NIV) John answered, “The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same.”
Luke 6:30 (Jer) “Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you.”
SOCIALISM!!!!!! (I know this is old, but she so asked for it XD)
blah blah blah
I fail utterly to see how what you believe differs all that much from the Muslim teachings you hate and fear.
Dearest Helen,
I am the Devil. I am coming to eat your soul and the souls of your worthless children.
Sincerely,
The Devil (AKA – Satan)
At least learn to spell if you choose to behave like a psychopathic banshee.
This is so islamophobic and bigoted, I don’t even know what to think. I hope you’re a troll, because frankly, you are one of the most hateful people I’ve seen on the internet. Which is saying a lot.
I live in a community with a high percentage of Muslims (I myself am agnostic), and they are the ones that do the most to add to our community. They are some of the most courageous, most friendly, most feminist people I’ve ever met. In my town, there is a lower rate of sexual harassment than I’ve experienced anywhere. REAL Muslims respect women.
Perhaps instead of bashing this wonderful website where survivors can tell their stories to help others and heal, you should go read a book on grammar and spelling, because yours is simply awful…homeschool at it’s finest, I supose! Come to think of it, what you have to say is pretty awful! People like you are the reason people like me think Quiverfull-Duggar-types who homeschool are freaky and scary. I would not allow my child to associate with someone like that, or rather, someone like you and your offspring. I feel pity for your children, and for your misguided thinking – I hope you get the help you obviously deserve!! And soon!! Yikes!
Alright, I try not to commit Heinous acts of thread Necromancy*₁. But your response was terrible on so many levels.
1. One you are a worse typist and speller than I am. This in and of it; s self is impressive for Native English Speaker. But “Oh I Immigrated from an oppressive Muslim country you say!” Bullshit. This is obviously bullshit for easy to tell reasons which I will explain in the following paragraphs.
I. If you lived in one of these Oppressive Counties Which Has Shiria Law you would live Either in North Africa or Mid-East with the exception of India, which if Memory serves, can apply Shiria law to Muslim citizens only. But I might be wrong on that last bit. As mentioned before your spelling is bad. This might make sense for a non-native speaker. But your Grammar usage and Spelling mistakes do not reflect having knowledge of previous language. You just seem not to be able to type….or spell.
II. Plus, we have the use of the word/slang “Purrrrrfect” This is outdated American slang and if I remember is only used by Catwoman in the 1960′s Batman. Or maybe in Americans Children’s Cartoons or Bad translations “dubs” of Anime.
III. If you lived in predominantly Muslim country you would probably have made more connections and friendships with Muslims, E.I been married to one, encountered Muslim women, etc. It’s immensely difficult to live in a country particularly one so totalitarian as the contently unspecified one you claim to be from and not have any connections to it or be a product of your culture. Yet you call them “Muslim Savages”.
IV. You seem to follow a Protestant Denomination of Christianity from the Verses you cited, that is the King James Bible, Correct? This would make your particular denomination of Christianity a British or American Type such as Baptist or Evangelical as Opposed to Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox? Statistically speaking the Christian minority in most Muslim counties is either Roman Catholic or some form of Eastern Orthodox. This makes your claim even more sketchy.
V. If you were an oppressed woman who was a member of a religious minority in a predominantly Muslim country with a strict totalitarian regime like you claim to be your attitude would be completely different. You’re all off. The sense of entitle meant wouldn’t be there. That’s a learned trait that comes from being part of a long standing prevailed class, E.I a Christian in America. An Oppressed woman immigrating in from a Muslim country having finally escaped a life time of abuse? There might be anger and bitterness perhaps? But this overarching sense of arrogance and self righteousness you’re showing? That’s prevlage coming out. That’s your true background coming out.
VI: So we established you are not who you say you are. That was not really all that hard to do. Who are you really? I can not say for sure? Christian, obviously belonging to some American-Protestant Demonstration. I’m not sure of your sex, that could go either way and really doesn’t matter as the above claims of yours were demonstrated to be false. You are probably young considering the combination of your poor spelling and typing skills and your complete lack of understanding of the real world, other religions, freedom of speech, freedom of religion in the United States, and how laid back and relaxed most Muslim Immigrants actually are*₂
2. Ah Religion. Where to Start. I could point out that the O.P or owner of the Web-Site does not need to justify her beliefs to you. Or I could Site the First Amendment. You know Separation of Church and State, as well as Free Speech being protected. But that’s been done. I could point out that you are working from a book written by bronze age goat headers that is therefor, not really applicable to modern life. You have probably heard that and don’t care. Or you think your God Literally wrote it. Or you believe the Apostles wrote the new testament.
Or I could point out that the Sumerian Creation mythology also has man and woman being created by clay and the earth and the sky being separated. And that most Historians theorize that a large part of the old testament was written during the Babylonian captivity as a sort of morality boost for the Hebrews. The Babylonian’s if you know your history were Conquerors of Sumerians and co-opted their mythological cycle, so you can see where they got they ideas for some of their myths…..
Or I could point out every thing historically inaccurate in the Bible….but I would need to write an entire series of books. Even Exodus takes a wile to go through. Lets just say you; re about a couple thousand years off on when the pyramids were built, who was king and that at the time there’s no record or substantial Ethnic Hebrew minority in Egypt. Oh….and no record of plagues around that time….recorded….any where else….how odd.
3.This is really a more personal gripe. But the way you use punctuation, grammar, and the caps lock key literally hurts my eyes. Would it have killed you to at least use 1.5 paragraph spacing, space between words, some form of spell check, and like pretend to know that there are spaces between sentences and paragraphs. I know I needed glasses and have weak eyes, but this is king of gratuitous. Now back to more relevant points.
4.”You would probably much rather prefer the MUSLIM OR THE HOMOSEXUAL Family Values”
You know what I’m not in the mood to touch your rampant Islamaphobia at the moment. Yes there are radical Islamic extremists. This is obvious. But the same can be said of Christians. And those are you know….already here.
That said….What is with you constant paranoia about “US” Yes, I am “A homosexual”. I am this mysterious boogeyman.” Ooooh oh no. The phantom scary homosexual out to corrupt your children. No, not really. One, homosexuals do not have one “Value” system about anything any more than Heterosexuals do. Or African Americans. Or what ever other ethnic or sexual minority group you can think of. Please stop fear mongering. It; s rude, embarrassing and just….tacky. My personal family values? I’m not sure really? I think the partners should treat psychotherapy with respect and love and strive to raise any children involved to be ethical, intelligent, Healthy, Happy and Free-people? Be responsible about what you do? I guess that’s my “Family values?” That’s the family values of most of the people I know, homosexual or Heterosexual…. So I’m not sure where you are going with homosexual family values. And as for us forcing it on you? No, we want to be able to live or lives and not have other people’s religion govern how we should live our lives. Something you claim you would be able to understand. I suppose tolerance is only good if it works in favor of Christians though?
5. I’m a tad torn whether you are trying to gain “Conversion points”*₃ or just trying to intimidate her into shutting down her website. Probably both.
Conclusion:
This comment annoyed me so much that I wrote about it while watching “The rape of Lucretia.” The Irony of this is not lost on me. How ever about the latter. Why are men in this Opera wearing suits and the women sort of half done Tuscan Clothes? This bothers me?
Sorry, distracted. Contralin/Ritalin must be leaving my system. You are a Quiver full posing as an independent party in an attempt to discredit this website. You are a horrible/Actor/Actress. Also You are bad at typing. Your Islamaphobia, Homophobia, Misogyny, and Blatant Disregard for any one that does not agree with your world view is disturbing to me.
Foot Notes:
1. Thread Necromancy is resercating a dead thread or responding to an old post. This often frowned upon
2. Yes, I actually Gasp know Muslims who are both Native and Non-native to this country. Some of them are nice people some of them aren’t. You know like…..every one….else
3. Conversion points are concept I came across. Some Religious people seem to gain Mystical/Karmic points from their chosen deity if they convert some one. It’s sort of like finding one of the “Secrets” in the Tomb raider Games for PSX or something….
From one Godless, homosexual linguaphile to another – thank you!
My ‘Homosexual Agenda’ is:
Eat an apple
Watch the new Stephen Fry documentary about how English evolved
Resolve to take pity on the likes of Helen, and fear people who apparently, only refrain from hurting other people because they believe it may offend some guy who died thousands of years ago.
*stands up and applauds*
I wasn’t going to leave another comment but this deserved a standing ovation. Good on ya! (Jesus had two daddies and he ended up just fine
)
Helen, people like you saved me from believing in a god.
For Gods sake Helen get some help.
Helen, it is obvious you are in urgent need of PSYCHIATRIC HELP. I hope you get it, so you’ll realize that YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TELL PEOPLE WHO DON’T PRACTICE YOUR HATEFUL, MONSTROUS FAITH TO ABIDE BY SUCH A MONSTROSITY. Do yourself a favor and get a divorce from the SOB you’re married to who treats you like a 2nd class citizen, spit in your pastor’s face and go to a real Christian church, instead of the mockery you go to now.
The longer I waded through your comment, Helen…the more apalled I became. You attack what you call this sites “hateful” attitude and then carry on to attack the site owner personally. Yet you did it in the most hateful of terms and, if I may point out…with horrifying grammar, spelling, and articulation. I DO hope we are not to look at your example of ignorance as a example of homeschooling at work. I would suggest you pry that plank out of your eye before worrying about the speck in anothers. You became exactly what you were preaching against. Ghastly…truly ghastly.
Erin,
you should fear when the muslims and the faggets surround you, they know how to use and abuse you alot better than the (not so perfect Christian husband), they will rape you whenever they want, cut your nose and lips to disfigure your face if you ever decide to leave, and if you left, they will hunt you down and cut you up in the streets, and give your remains to the dogs…so just chilout and take a deep breath with the fact that I exist.
English became my third languge after I came to America at the age of 25, so please forgive me ………
I would like to see you going and using what ever brains you have to learn the ARABIC or any other language before bashing my spelling??????
by the way “anti-psychotics” are “drugs” and they are NOT FIT for Christians, but they probably fit you to control your “fear for the world” !!!!!!!!
A wise woman buildeth her house, but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands.
a woman being raped by “faggots”? did you hear abot the world “orientation”? Rape is when the movement says she has no right to refuse her husband, practically making her rapeable any time he wants so.
on the other hand, male homosexuals are famous for NOT wanting women. Go look at any dictionary.
your stupidity makes me sad
Hmmm… I’ve always wanted to learn Arabic.
Erin,
you should fear when the muslims and the faggets
Uh, a homphobe! Not even you should belong to your faith. And why do you have a problem with Muslims? You agree with the small minority who want everyone to practice one faith, so why do you hate them?
Erin,
you should NOT fear when the muslims and the faggets, YOU SHOULD FEAR MUSLIM HATING HOMOPHOBES like Helen, who hate America.
assassin girl!!!!!
what a sick name!!!!!!by the way vycke’s EX and the children are much better off with out her anyway, I am 100% sure of that.
people like you both are the most selfesh, dangerous, pridefull, heartless, boring, unproductive, ugly, big mouth spoiled, good for nothing brats, and yes you can assassin, because you think you have YOUR OWN RIGHTS………. my foot!!!!!!!!!!!
you just wait until the muslims finish taking over your selfesh sick lives and then start shouting “your rights” they will slash your throut before taking your next breath, just turn off your sick TV AND get off your big fat you know what and GET EDUCATED about what REALLY is going around you, just study a little about the muslims in Dear Born MI and many other cities in the US and in EUROP, see with your own eyes the completion of the Shariaa law taking over whole cities and what they believe and do with women like you.
you are trying all you can to bash GOD and Christians, just to get a little attention, because of your empty, meaningless and miserable lives, YOU GO HEAD AND SHOW ME you try to bash the muslims, mohammed and thier book in a country under Shariaa law and see what will come to you next……… GOD BLESS AMERICA AND BREAK DOWN THE BIG LOUD MOUTHS, AND TO GOD BE THE GLORY NOW AND FOREVER AMEN AND AMEN.
Wow.
Helen, I can see that this is an issue close to your heart and it’s very emotionally charged to you. But are you not letting your emotions harden your heart? I do not think you are hearing what Vickie is saying.
Tell me, what do (extremist) Muslim regimes do to women that makes you use their existance as a threat? Is it not that they use them as nothing more than breeding mares who must submit to their husband in everything? And women who step out of line are punished with violence. How is this core belief – women’s highest (and ONLY truly godly) calling being child birth and submission to her husband – different from the one Quiverful teaches? The only difference I can see is one of degree in punishment for leaving.
Your beliefs do not appear to come from a place of loving compassion that would befit a follower of Jesus – in fact, it’s blackmail: Accept this god-approved soulcrushing lifestyle or THE MUSLIMS ARE GONNA GET YOU!
PS: It’s puzzling how you would group Sharia law and “homosexual family values” (whatever those are) together, seeing as how under Sharia law, homosexuals are executed. Another thing extremist Muslims and extremist Christians have in common: a murderous hatred for gay people.
I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian family hearing my mother pray for “my spirit to be broken of its pride”.
I left them at the age of 16 and am so grateful I managed to escape that kind of soul-crushing cruelty.
Instead of being filled with any kind of light or love, the fundies I grew up around were angry, like you, Helen. Sad people who wished pain on others and delighted in suffering and misery. People who were unwilling to take responsibility for their own actions. People who were unwilling to make any effort toward attaining their goals. People who just watched life pass them by and wished things were different. People who lived in fear of everyone around them.
Helen, the world is a beautiful place. Yes, the world can be a harsh place too. Sometimes, bad things are going to happen. But they happen at no greater pace without an angry god in your life. I find my life is so much more meaningful since I chose to think for myself and really see the world I live in. My mind is my own. I am responsible for my decisions and actions. I am happy.
I encourage you to let go of your fear and hatred, Helen.
wow! calm down! you need to get out of your head and take a good look at yourself… objectively.
GOD BLESS AMERICA \
Why do you say this, when you scream in your posts that you hate America because we have FREEDOM OF RELIGION HERE and you can’t force people to belong to the monstrous faith you do, helen. You should move to Saudi Arabia where they agree with you that people must follow a state religion.
Thank you for sticking up for the truth! In a perfect world I would marry you.
Thank you, Vyckie. I believe you have accurate definitions and explanations of those terms, as I have known them.
As someone coming out of the QF/P movement, I really appreciate this website and the stories of other women.
Anyone else enjoying the irony of this?
“GOD BLESS AMERICA AND BREAK DOWN THE BIG LOUD MOUTHS”
I feel like there is a lot of hate in this “Christian” comment site. We should be reaching out in love.
“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.”
Let’s try to remember these words when talking to each other.
Yes, there are cultic like families that are a part of the quiverfull movement. There are also loving, sound families that are a part of it. Satan can stick his ugly foot in any Christian family or any Christian movement for that matter, and corrupt it. I try to remember not to make such large generalities about any group – Muslims, Christians or any faith/ group of people.
To these two comments:
“Those of us who grew up with no voice and no personal worth really DO appreciate what Vyckie is doing by having this website and blog.”
“How is this core belief – women’s highest (and ONLY truly godly) calling being child birth and submission to her husband – different from the one Quiverful teaches? The only difference I can see is one of degree in punishment for leaving.”
I hope that you two understand that the groups/husbands that you were with were not practicing a Godly lifestyle. The bible does call women to be submissive to their husbands but it also calls men to love their wives (See Eph quote below). And, the bible defines love as, not self-seeking, protective, kind ext. (See the quote from 1 Cor above)
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31″For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
This does not say to bow down and worship your husband, it says to submit and respect him. It also says that the husband is submitting to the Lord, if he is doing this, the woman is not going to feel trampled on or feel as though they have no value, and they certainly won’t be punishing their wives. 1 Peter 3:7, says to honor your wife. A woman is not just a piece of property that sits by and waits for the husband to say, “jump.”
Proverbs 31:10–31, presents the outright model for a woman, the wife of a noble character. She is worth more than rubies, bringing good to her husband, and caring for her family. She provides for the poor and needy. She does a little business on the side, making and selling garments, supplying merchants, considering a field to buy, planting a vineyard from her earnings. She is industrious, never idle, full of dignity, respected and praised by her husband and children. She speaks with wisdom and instruction, and we are admonished to give her the reward she has earned.
This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh She shall be called ‘woman’ for she was taken out of man. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and they will become one flesh. (Genesis 2:23, 24, NIV).
In other words, Eve was Adam’s wife, part of him, equal to him, not an animal, sexually bonded to him in a monogamous relationship.
(Taken from http://www.loveofchrist.info/church/woman.html)
Karebear – what do you suggest women do whose husbands are not living up to their side of the bargain? Does your quiverfull allow for divorce? Separation? Remarriage? Or is the answer to “just keep submitting” until death or transformation?
Vyckie,
I’m saddened to read that you would turn your back on Christ, and lead your 7 children to do the same (at least by example).
Obviously, I don’t know the details of the ‘extremism’ you felt you were a part of. Maybe you were shortchanged, and did not get a truly Christ-honoring husband. Few men in this country know how to act like real men, and its only getting worse.
But I will say this; turning your back on Christ is rebellion Vyckie. And the rebellious are eternally separated from Christ – in a very real place called hell – and then the lake of fire.
I pray that you and your children don’t end up there – after spending a life here ‘having a blast’, blogging, winning awards, etc. All of that stuff is going to burn. I’ve wasted chunks of my life on similar pursuits, so know that in my pointing out of these things, three of my fingers are pointing back at me…
Like it or not, Satan does hate your guts – he hates your children – and has clouded your [once?] love for Christ – using the events of your life to condition you to bring you where you are today.
You will probably write me off as one of the men that you despise from your memories – that’s ok. I’m not posting here for any other reason than I care for the souls in the Garrison family.
I’m not a pastor, just a brother praying a sister returns to Christ before its too late.
“…because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” Rom 1:21
Has your heart become darkened to hearing God?
You have 7 beautiful, hopefully healthy children. Who gave them to you?
It seems futile to publicly renounce the God of the Universe, to get 70,000 (or any #) hits on a blog.
Are you done thumbing your nose at the Lord?
Is your soul worn out yet?
Someday, your knee will bow, and my knee will bow. Wheat or chaff – that’s the question.
I pray for the restoration of your relationship with Christ.
Bill
Satan is the boogie man for adults who can’t take responsibility for their lives. Grow up and quit threatening Vyckie with hell. She knows all about your scriptures and your bloodthirsty god.
She did the best thing for them by taking them away from an abusive father, an abusive doctrine, and into the freedom to think, and choose for themselves. A level of grace Christians of your ilk, sir, never bestow on their children. No, no. You hoard them as YOUR treasures, never giving them the love and trust to be ADULTS!
You don’t make a convincing counter-argument.
Angie,
Children are not adults. We do have a responsibility to train them into that role and some do better then others.
For the record I am a Christian, and I don’t agree with the FQ movement. For the record also God is not blood thirsty, man is!! Man wants to please God by doing all these acts that will make them more “holy”. The only act it takes to please God is to believe on His Son. The Holy Spirit will do the rest. That is was man forgets….the Father sent the Holy Spirit to teach us and man forgets over and over again he is not the Holy Spirit.
Ok I know you think I am babbling, please don’t think all Christians are like Bill. I do agree with a comment that someone else made though and that is generalizations can be very dangerous.
Sincerely,
Rachele
Angie, allow me to help here. If there is no God (per your screen name) then there is nothing wrong with being an abusive father. Sure, your personal subjective opinion might deem things wrong. But, on the objective level, you really can’t claim that something is absolutly wrong, because in a world with no God, there is no objective standard. Now, of course, YOU can’t live that way and hence, you claim objective standards. Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument and your comments above betray you screen name of ‘anti-theist.’ Oh, btw, if you and an atheist-materialist, there is also no such thing as love. Why, because love is abstract and atheism believes only in material things. Hence, love is reduced to electro-chemical reactions in the brain (there is no ‘mind’ because that is immaterial as well) via internal and external stimuli. Please try to live according to your presuppositions and see how far it takes you…which won’t be far at all. Jesus is Lord!
There is everything wrong with abusing the very people who you’re supposed to love and protect. Regaurdless (sp?)if your god exists or not.
“Why, because love is abstract and atheism believes only in material things.”
Wrong. atheists don’t believe in a god.
What a disgusting, arbitrary, bias statement you make against Angie..but you know what, it’s typical. Your beliefs are contradicted by your snared tongue. It provides a backdrop of certainty against a knowledge of ‘god’, because of the hypocritical garbage you attain from what you believe or think you know because someone told you. It’s bias and cynical and lacks knowledge. Look at your own words again and tell again of your human nature.
If there is no God (as I believe) then there is STILL absolutely something wrong with abusing someone. Do you know what that is? ABUSE IS WRONG. I don’t need to believe I’ll burn in hell if I do something bad to choose to do good. I’m a good person. So is my son. So is Vyckie.
So, let me get this straight… if it wasn’t for your fear of hell and punishment you would be abusing your children?
Well, that’s completely disturbing. I hope we never meet.
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.”
Even evil people give good gifts to their children. That doesn’t save them from everlasting death, to everlasting life. Faith is the victory!
Also, this is some bigoted crap. Atheists can believe in love, souls, magic, whatever they want. They just don’t believe in a god. They varry a lot. As you can see from my screenname, I’m actually Jewish, but I’m not a dick. Atheists make up the smallest population in our prision system while Christians the largest. Food for thought, fundie
“You have 7 beautiful, hopefully healthy children. Who gave them to you?”
Spoken like a true patriarch. Possible answers include:
A. She gave birth to them herself. That’s hard work. She didn’t sit on her front porch waiting for babies from UPS or the stork. Assuming that anyone “gave” her children is really rather insulting.
B. No one, because one’s children do not belong to oneself. They are individuals who cannot be owned.
“You have 7 beautiful, hopefully healthy children. Who gave them to you?”
Let’s see, it starts with an egg and a sperm that “hook up” together and thus begins fertilization. So both the man and the woman are contributing to the first part of the process of creating children in a separate but equal way.
God gives Children to believers. That’s why atheists can’t have children… wait…
Bill,
You sound like our EX- pastor. Pitiful.
Re: “But I will say this; turning your back on Christ is rebellion Vyckie. And the rebellious are eternally separated from Christ – in a very real place called hell – and then the lake of fire.”
This reminds me of one of the worlds most famous rebels – Jesus of Nazareth.
Submission is nothing but slavery.
Bill, no knee will bow to your faith. That should be obvious to you by the amount of cars that pass your house of scare the masses on Sundays.
As for my hopes for you; I hope one day you are strong enough to lose the crutch that you want everyone to need.
“Refusal of government assistance sometimes means that these families go without medical insurance ~ a situation which can influence the parents to choose “natural remedies,” home birth, and similar non-medical approaches to family health.”
Please understand that not everyone with insurance wants to give birth in a hospital. I had insurance when my daughter was born, and I fought the insurance company to cover my midwife for my homebirth. I could have had that “desirable” c-section, no problem. It took months of fighting and my fiance’s employer’s HR department having to get involved to get the insurance company to pay for a midwife. Also many of us natural-parenting parents choose to attempt holistic remedies first before seeking chemical and western medicine.
The problem is when a woman CAN’T get prenatal care, or a medical problem actually needs a doctor’s help, but neither can be sought because of lack of insurance and a refusal to accept government help.
(No, I’m not a Quiverfuller, and sought fertility treatment to get pregnant, and I’m not married yet. So I think Quiverfullers would think I’m full of sin and the problem with this world.)
Aria-Star – you’re the herpes of the internet, you get everywhere. Nobody cares about your idiotic views on anything. Go back to your little sewing room with your baby doll, and get Cody to fetch your pills.
That 6-letter F-word is banned in my household.
@Dr. Lanlais: This woman, by referencing no more quiverfull in the website name, page titles, etc, has made it clear she is only targeting the movement. From what I’ve read so far, she doesn’t attack large families in general, just the strains the extreme religious ideology put on those families, and those women to have families. She also criticizes how people hide behind homeschooling in those groups. i personally share similar feelings and would much prefer to homeschool my children (when I have them) for what I imagine are almost the same reasons as what you described. However, in this movement, it’s not the same.
Secondly, she’s not just coming out and bashing. She’s been there, done that, and is describing the harmful effects it had on her and her children.
@Helen
Nice scare tactics. You’ve stricken fear in my heart and I tremble at your words. I hope sarcasm reads over the computer. Seriously, get a grip.Yes, it’s horrible in that part of the world.We all know this. No one has disputed you there. However, this site is discussing a Christian “denomination” that oppresses women here in the west. I’m sure the things your described, men in this movement have done, or the women at least feel raped, abused, etc. Maybe not all, but a portion at least.
Oh and um, before you attack my intelligence Helen, keep in mind I speak 3 other languages, besides English. So I do have the brain power to speak something else, and following your logic, I also have the brain power to critique and comment on what I’m reading
I found this article very interesting! I will first start off and state that I am a nondenominational christian and in the same sentence I will state that any type of extremism cant be good. Number one commandment according to Jesus Christ was to love your neighbor as your own self. No man would force himself into “slavery” to do whatever the other person asks and stay in the kitchen. And a woman would never force herself onto others saying she is better than than a man and of children. Forcing anyone into a little box isnt what God wanted, he created us all DIFFERENT for a reason.
“You cant paint a masterpiece with only one color.”
I think I am the gray area between the quiverfull and leaving the faith. I follow no man but Jesus Christ. Yes, he gave me a husband but I am to obey Christ first and foremost. I have a strong personality and if my husband told me to stay barefoot in the kitchen I would laugh. Did Rahab stand by and let the men do whatever they wanted? Heck no! She stood her ground and risked her life to rescue the two men. She did what she believed was right. What about Mary? Did she cower and hide when they found out she was a teen mother out of wedlock? Nope! She stood strong and stood up for what she believed in. My favorite was Ruth. She was an outcast in the wrong society and didnt have a “religious” upbringing. They thought of her as less than a human and cursed because her husband died. She didnt give up! She stood by her mother in law and stood for what was right. Through strength she found the man named Boaz and together they lead their household.
God didnt create women to be weak and less than a man. He pulled woman out of mans side, not his foot to be walked on, not his head to above him, but from his side to stand next to and be equal.
I liked this article though because too many Christian families get wrapped up in the technicalities of what to say, what to wear, how to act that they forget the whole purpose is to draw closer to God. Thank you for this article.
great words! that’s exactly how i see it. i hate how patriarchy-types will take ruth and make her into a model of ‘submissive’ womanhood….haha, as if! what good submissive woman proposes to her man?
i did a lot of study on the meaning of the word ‘ezer’ (helpmeet) this spring….turns out, that word has mostly military connotations and is used to describe one army coming to the assistance of another. hardly any weakness here!
::Slow Clap:: Nice that someone’s head is on straight out here.
WOW!!
I am a proud Australian who just tonight watched Sunday Night and Heard Vyckie’s story. As a mother myself I commend you, our children need a parent to protect them when the other one fails.
I also spent 17 years of my life in the Christian faith. I do not believe in Christianity as godly I believe it to be an organized religion. I believe in God and love Him wholeheartedly. Nothing in this world could make me turn my back on Him. But I will never step a foot inside an organization that claim they love God. Many, many ppl use God or Jesus’ name to pursue their own sick desire’s.
Helen, you really do need help. You call yourself a Christian yet you condemn ppl who will not conform to your beliefs. Also I do believe God would frown upon the comment “faggots”. Does God not say to accept them and not their actions? You are persecuting ppl who choose to live their life the way they choose. How are you any better then Paul when he persecuted the Christians? God is a god of love remember that nxt time you use His name!!
It comes down to the fact that a very brave woman is trying to warn others of a dangerous cult. You can believe or not but this is her story to tell not yours. No one except Vyckie has the right to condemn what she went through. As a woman I am disgraced that other women would accept this cult as a way of life…… I think it’s time that those women started to believe in themselves! Only true happiness within can give you the fulfillment that a cult will never deliver. Whether it be Quiverful or Children of God, any cult that uses women or children to make men into god’s needs to be taken down. Always remember the very first commandment…… There is only one God and Man is not it!!!!
hi there. i was just reading through these comments and was sitting here in shock as to the hatred that people were sending out. i am muslim and i know that islam doesnt teach hate, it teaches love and respect to others even though they are not the same race, religion etc. Women are treated as equal as men, nobody is better then any other.
@ Salwa, you must admit surely that some of the “Fundamentalist” Muslim beliefs are v. much the same as some of the “Fundamentalist” Christian/ Born Again/ QF beliefs.
All preach hate, judgement and Lies under the guise of God in whatever form they believe him to be.
Islam may indeed be all that you say it is- for you, just as Christianity is all that for me
And the same goes for fundamental strains of Judaism.
According to them non-Jews only exist to serve as slaves once their messiah has come, and do not have souls. They have a parallel legal system that punishes women for not dressing modestly enough, yet lets child molesters roam free. It is essentially the same thing as Sharia. They also have up to 20 children, and the men do not work and only take welfare. Women are not allowed to vote, to make decisions, and even need to send their underwear to be inspected to make sure they are ‘pure’. A man may not even pass anything to his wife (even their baby!) if she is ‘impure’.
Funny how the same people that scream and rant about how evil muslims force women into submission, and claim muslims want to enslave everyone, give fundamental jews a free pass.
The failedmessiah.com website is the Jewish version of this site.
FYI: Regarding denominations represented in the Quiverfull movement, you indicated the Church of Christ/Disciples of Christ. While the Church of Christ and the Disciples of Christ share a common heritage, they split long ago over issues of interpretation of scripture and are very from from each other now. I am an ordained minister in the Disciples Church. That, in and of itself, should give you an indication of my denomination’s view of women. While our denomination has churches and members across the liberal-conservative continuum, we could hardly be called a “fundamentalist” denomination. We ordain women (or General Minister and President is a women). We ordain openly gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender persons. In all of the churches I have served, I have not had a single family who homeschooled their children, and in most families, both adults work outside the home.
I do have cousins who have become involved in the Quiverfull movement, which is what led me to your site. I am thankful that you are here, and as I continue to be a resource for my family (and to model a different form of womanhood to my girl cousins), I suspect I will reference your site many times.
But I ask you, please amend your list of denominations represented. The Church or Christ and the Disciples of Christ are NOT synonymous. Thank you.
Our family IS most of the points you mentioned, but are not patriarchal, sequestered, or cultish in any form.
Each of our choices was an independent decision of the other. We first began to homeschool mostly because we were in an inferior and substandard school system.
We moved to the country, because we wanted chickens!!
We havve a lot of kids, because, gosh darn it, we like ‘em!!
I am a wife submitter, because I am a christian, and it is clear the bible teaches it. But, I am married to a wise, spiritual, undertstanding and kind man, so that made it easy on me, because I can be rash, harsh and immature, so he being the leader makes a whole lot more sense in a lot of ways.
I even run my own business from our home!!!! But that’s becasue it is so small yet that I can’t afford to rent/buy a building and I would never put my kids in day care (sohelp me goodness).
We even homechurch. That happened because some folks chose to be very devisive and took enough people out of our church, it lowered our attendance and we had no choice but to go to a smaller facility (i.e.: home) That would never have happened, honestly, if these people had Christ as their authority to begin with and weren’t trying to get their own way about things.
So, yes, we do all those things, but we aren’t patriarchal or quiverfull or any of the other things you mentioned. Each and every one of those decisions made sense to us for various reasons. I guess if you read a book, and chose to do those things by checking off a list, then you could be labeled as you have chosen, but I have not read any books, been to any of those website you mentioned, or even know anyone in those organizations. We just are who we are. And happy too!
Believing that the Bible teaches Christian wives to submit = patriarchal.
Thank god you didn’t want to be anything other than a wife, mother and very small business runner. Other women cannot or do not want to do what you do. They are not evil for it. Or against god. That’s where the problem comes in. You are free to have your family and be happy (seriously, congrats on it) but the issue with QF is that it becomes instill and promoted as the only way to be a good person. Forget women as doctors, lawyers or anything that requires time (ie not being pregnant) as well as married/not celibate. It’s just sad that women are being manipulated away from choice. I’m glad you made a choice that worked well for you and no one is going to say that you shouldn’t have all the babies (and chickens) you want, but we need to allow your daughters and others to choose to do the same or not without threats and ridicule.
I wish there were a God to wipe your kind from the face of the planet.
I was homeschooled and it should be outlawed for the kinds of incompetence, lies, deception, and abuse it opens children to.
You really think homeschool should be outlawed? What about those of us who do it well and who’s children choose it? What about the abuse, misplacement and general damage that comes from institutional schooling? In an abusive home, nothing works. Not homeschool, not institutional. I’m sorry you were hurt, but homeschooling isn’t to blame.
Thank you for this website. I’m so blessed to have a Christian husband to parent with. We see eye to eye on most things but both respect each others passions in decision making. Jesus would not recognize a man as his follower who looked down upon women, who didn’t cherish and love and adore his family. Jesus also wouldn’t recognize a people as his who are filled with hate and judgment, for any reason. We may discern, only God may judge.
I’m so sorry for all of you who endured abuse. My deepest prayers go out to you. And yes, you should always walk away from abuse. Do whatever it takes to show your children the true nature of Christ. Love. WWJD?
My favorite line:
“What about those of us who do it well and who’s children choose it?”
“Who’s” means “who is” or “who has”. It’s “whose” that you want. Doing it well????
Thanks also for telling me who Jesus recognizes! I bet He appreciated that!
Perhaps it should be regulated rather than banned?
Yes, God will judge. But on what grounds will he judge the unsaved?
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
“Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?”
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”
Faith in the Son Jesus Christ is the victory over death! Those without faith will perish, to nevermore exist, in the lake of fire.
Just want you to know..I hear you.
Mine is among the many thank yous. Thank you for putting this blog together and slogging through a lot of opposition so those of us who’ve felt alone can reach out.
I grew up in a home of (thankfully) 4 children. Do to complications, my mother had a hysterectomy after the last of us was born. But we started into the same mentality as the QF movement and our family was friends with mostly QF families. We homeschooled, we were members of ATI and IBLP, attended a home church, and I hated that life.
I began my career in the arts in my tweens, and had to constantly defend the beliefs that I didn’t hold. I didn’t want to appear weak or forced, so I was extremely well read and knew all the right things to say because I wanted to believe. I sincerely wanted it to be as simple as believing. But it wasn’t.
As a child, I was repeatedly sexually assaulted by an extended family member. Instead of seeking real help or EVER talking to me about it, my torn mind and ruined childhood were ignored. I was a sexual being and was continually punished for my curiosity. Much of this was due to their desire for me to be a godly young woman, when I had so many things unresolved that it couldn’t happen. I acted the part when I could, but my heart was never fully in it because I was so angry all the time.
None of this was ever talked about. I was sent away to training conferences and sent to christian counselling where it was all accusations and telling me to confess my sins and come back to Christ.
I do believe my family wanted the best for me. Both of my parents came from nonChristian homes that were very messed up. They wanted to create this perfect, beautiful family, but they had broken pieces. My family got out of those movements when I was about 17, but by then, the damage had been done. I then got engaged to a man who’d had the same upbringing, but had left the church. Things were fine for about a year, but then some of the old teaching started showing up in his behaviour and what he wanted from me, even though we were sexually active. So I left him before we got married. I couldn’t handle someone else in my life who was a hypocrite and wanted me to change.
All I wanted was to be able to trust someone who wasn’t going to get close to me and then tell me my ways were wrong and I needed to repent.
My family is healing. My parents and I are on good terms, and they understand that they really messed up me. We are closer now than we’ve ever been, but it’s taken years and really wanting to be family again for us to come together.
My beliefs now are mainly Buddhist, with a healthy dose of trying to understand unconditional love.
Children are not fools. They take in so much and yet are more fragile than eggshells, so don’t walk all over them and what they need. Each is different and no manual can tell you what’s best. Know your children and talk to them about their hurts.
You have my compassion. But I gathered from your post that your resentful attitude towards Christianity has its roots in at least three circumstances. 1) The sexual molestation, 2) The so-called “home church”, and 3) Being educated among nonbelivers that provoked you and made you feel like a freak.
1) The sexual molestation seem to have awakened your sexual desires too early, and to an exaggerated degree. That’s common among sexually abused children. Also, this gave rise to a mistrust in Christianity (given that your relative professed to be a Christian). Whether or not the molestation triggered your lust too early, it is not well for such a natural desire as sexual needs to be quenched and deemed sinful. However, most of today’s children get their “education” about sex from pornography, and that is something that results in depraved conduct and a normalization of fornication. It’s better to be somewhat open about sexual matters within the family and that the parents encourage their children to focus their energy on pursuits that last and are helpful to a person when it has become an adult.
2) Home church is not biblical, and may have stifled your zest for life, isolated you from peers, and hampered your social skills. Home is home. Church is church. Don’t fuse them as one.
3) Being educated in a heathen school naturally will not strengthen your faith in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God. The unsaved will always persecute the believers and try to lead us down harmful paths.
There seem to have been more of quenching of spirit than of joy and fun in your upbringing.
Personally, I have struggles with my faith and must always be reminded of the times the power of God showed up to prove his existance. I mean, I have had clear and direct proof of 1) the power of then name of our Lord and Savior, and 2) the power of the Bible. Unclean spirits have been cast out, the Bible has caused possession in atheists. Yet, even though I have this evidence, together with the compelling evidence of a very young earth and of a global flood, I must always have reinforcement constantly. Every day. What is the only thing, the one and only thing that makes me reject the Word of God sometimes? It is my conforming to the world. It is my desires to do that which I have seen in pornography, to sleep with many sluts. That is my battle in life. The normalization of fornication.
I am with you, that every person is different. That’s God’s will. But oftentimes children become what they experience. So, it is a parent’s duty to shelter their children from certain things. Does a child love to dance? Don’t buy a stripping pole and a raunchy CD, but channel the child to less sensual dance styles. I believe in sheltering a child from the Internet, and from heathen cultures. The truth is, as you very well know, that pornography is just a few mouseclicks away. With good conscience, could you live with the uncertainty, that your child might have seen despicable things that cater to their natural desire to have sexual intercourse? We all know that pornography is of the devil, and that the sentiments that Hollywood instills are of the devil. No wonder Christ-rejecting Israelites-of-the-flesh own both of those industries. Christians are the spiritual Israel, and the descendants of Jacob hate us for that.
I hope you turn from Buddhism and its empty promises and return to your Creator, God and Savior.
Peace.
/Christian for 7 years so far
I discovered your site. I was raised in a progressive Christian household, and was NEVER taught to submit to any man. Let’s be honest, Paul had some issues with the ladies. Jesus preached to women equally.
However, one of my close friends is being completely closed off and forced into a young marriage and lack of autonomy. I don’t know how to help her. I went to college and grad school and she got brainwashed into thinking by working and living by myself (and dating) I was a sinner. She doesn’t see how controlling her future husband is. I feel like I lost my childhood friend from school to this.
I take it from your post that you are dead set on fornicating, although the Bible tells you not to do that.
“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.”
“Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.”
“This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.”
You are mistaking voluntary submission with involuntary servitude. As a Christian lady you are commanded to be subject to your husband, it is asked of you to submit. It doesn’t say “men, oppress your woman to all costs!”. As a Christian woman who claims to believe in the Word of God, which is inspired/breathed by God, your Creator, is it alright for you to dismiss what that Word says?
A woman surrenders to a man so easily when he takes charge. That is the danger of having a matriarch with a man in subjection. The woman indeed is the weaker vessel, tossed to and fro, giving in to whims, and judges things according to her motherly instinct. For instance, she would say sodomite couplings are lovely, because love is blind. A man who is not of God would say “I don’t care, to each their own”, but not mention love in the equation. A man of God would not even let a sodomite in under his roof or in the vincinity of his children!! Let me tell you something, love is not blind! Even infatuation is not blind. But infatuation and love are two different things. Love is a choice. Hate is a choice. I will hate the wicked and their deeds. Yes, hate. Furthermore, sodomites hate God, and infiltrate churches to spit in God’s face. You might say, “sodomites love each other, so what’s wrong with that”? I love my siblings, does that mean I have sexual relations with them?! I love men, as brothers. I love women, as sisters. But by God, there is only one person I take sexual pleasure in! Love is not sex. Learn it, woman.
So, if you’re a Christian woman, your God that you supposedly love, tells you to submit and be in subject to your husband in every thing. Am I a jealous man? Every man of God should be jealous! Just as God is jealous, and wants us only to worship him.
And why am I jealous? Because the woman is the weaker vessel, and evil men who have acknowledged this takes advantage, to defile you.
“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
I’m telling you, there’s a lot of weak vessels, silly women, out there, who ungodly men lie in wait for. Am I controlling for keeping my woman away from these evil men? Then so be it. Yes, I am in control, but I love my woman enough to grant her freedom of thought and expression. She is as intelligent as I am, but still the weaker vessel, due to her willingness to surrender and submit to a man who takes charge. Ask yourself, how many men adopt the interests and beliefs of their wives? None. How many women adopts the interests and beliefs of their husbands? They are in abundance. It is clear that a woman submits to a man who rules her, even to the point of abuse, I’m sad to say. Therefore a Christian man is told to love his woman as himself. What man would abuse himself? He may abuse drugs or alcohol but not himself.
“And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.”
“and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
In the words of our Lord Jesus himself, in the garden of Eden!
Of course, the equivalent to “dating” is playing the harlot, and be a whore. I once thought dating was a means to find a spouse, only to discover that it is uninhibited fornication!
I sometimes date. But I am still a virgin. I also work, and live alone. Your first assumption show that you don’t know anything about real life or real women, and sprout ridiculous ideas.
Agree with many commenters who bemoan your generalization. But my real comment is on the sad state of grammar on the site! Your header says “no longer qivering” not quivering… and there are a lot of “it’s” when you mean “its.” This really doesn’t gain you any credibility points!
–Christina– a Christian, home-schooling, cloth-diapering wife & mom who DOES believe in Biblical submission.. but is not part of the “quiver-full” movement nor the patriarchal “movement”
Um, then you didn’t read the line right below the “No Longer Qivering” header, because right below that it says “There is no ‘you’ in quivering.” It’s a play on words.
Biblical submission = patriarchy Does your home-school have a dictionary?
patriarchy: A form of social organization in which a male is the family head and title is traced through the male line
Adopt children abandoned in an orphanage is better god shook happy band of selfish !!!!!
Shouldn’t normal adult relationships be devoid of submission? I see people mention “egualitarian” relationships as “mutual submission”. There is no submission of either part!
I had no idea the horrors we see on TV as practiced in faraway savage “backwards” countries exist and are permitted in our midst. Does the constitution allow for marital slavery and rape? The authorities know these things exist and do nothing? I’m shocked!
Thank you for “raising awareness”! Ignorance is the origin of all evil!
pa·tri·arch·y
/ˈpeɪtriˌɑrki/ [pey-tree-ahr-kee]
–noun, plural -ies.
1.
a form of social organization in which the father is the supreme authority in the family, clan, or tribe and descent is reckoned in the male line, with the children belonging to the father’s clan or tribe.
2.
a society, community, or country based on this social organization.
Definition of SUBMISSION
\səb-ˈmi-shən\ sub·mis·sion
noun
1
: a legal agreement to submit to the decision of arbitrators b : an act of submitting something (as for consideration or inspection); also : something submitted (as a manuscript)
2
: the condition of being submissive, humble, or compliant
3
: an act of submitting to the authority or control of another
Here is my point:
Under “biblical submission”, it is the wife that “submits” to the authority of her husband. Yet I have noticed a number of people on this site deny that they are part of the “patriarchal movement” while simultaneously stating that they fully accept and live by the idea of “biblical submission”. I’m sorry people but if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck…
“I’m sorry people but if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck…”
Heart motivation is everything. Something can look the same on the outside and be completely different because the intention is not the same.
The act of submitting in itself is not wrong. True submission is purely self-willful, without coercion, done in goodness because a person wants to honor the other–no strings attached. If someone submits because they’re forced to, or terrorized into it, that’s totally different and wrong. It’s not submission at all. That’s slavery.
One is done out of honor, the other out of fear, but they look the same outwardly. This is why God says He judges the intents of the heart–thank God.
“The act of submitting in itself is not wrong.”
The act of equating submission with goodness, of framing womanhood as the state of constant submission, of treating submission as a sign of spiritual prowess, and of equating non-submission with “rebellion,” godlessness and failure as a wife is absolutely wrong.
Either submission is completely voluntary and completely optional, and there are no repercussions to NOT submitting, or submission is mandatory and has the weight of a command from God, with non-submission bearing dangerous consequences.
You can’t have it both ways. Don’t play dumb.
I am seriously disheartened by all the comments- chock full of grammatical, spelling and punctuation errors- from people who purport to homeschool.
You noticed that too, eh?
We have six children and homeschool. I enjoy it very much. I am realizing from the many comments that no matter how you state your concerns there will be those that just do not understand. I am freed from that lifestyle, i.e., quiverfull, modesty, patriarchal (sp.?). All I can say is I am so very glad to be free and know there will be those that do not understand, become offended, don’t like generalizations, etc., etc. etc.
I have noticed that most American Christian movements with strict biblical standards end up being personality-destroying cults. However, I’ve found many conservative Mennonites to be kind, responsible people with large families and few or none of the excesses of the quiverful movement. While they value large families, if it’s too much for a woman, no one will condemn her for using birth control or choosing to adopt because she doesn’t like being pregnant. They are much more practical and level-headed than the groups I’ve seen on this site. The men use a lot of peer pressure to keep themselves in line and do not tolerate abusive behavior. Unlike the extreme homeschool groups, they would encourage mental health help if needed, and they truly help one another will medical expenses, and take care of one another. If you want the best of the quiverful lifestyle without the junk, I urge you to check out http://www.anabaptists.org church locator. You can save yourself a lot of grief by being part of a conservative Mennonite group rather than these goofy, imbalanced, extreme groups.
Not all Mennonites are so quaint and innocent:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-latin-america-14688458
Basically if a human is involved, there will be a problem. Dogma sucks.
Yes, there is no “you” in Quivering. But it’s not about “you”. It’s about HIM. Christ. And only Christ. Yes, there are many groups that distort the Word of God. And while you are trying to free women from situations that may become abusive and are distorting Scripture – you are inadvertently subscribing to the world’s view that everything is about “you”. What “you” want, what feels good to “you”. Guess what – it’s not about “you”.
Our family has homeschooled for the past 8 years. We have 4 children. Our motivation is not to seclude our children from the world, but to prepare them to handle the world when they are mature enough. Children should learn from their parents, not from other children their same age. Why would you want your child of 9 to learn how to behave from other 9 year olds? We are involved in many groups outside the home, some within our church (CMA) and some secular groups. We do not disallow friendships with unsaved or unchurched people. But we do set limits that those children come to our home. The Lord called us to homeschool. We can tailor teaching to the needs of each child, accelerating when appropriate – or taking additional time when needed. Our kids are able to speak and interact with people of all ages. We are involved with a homeschool speech and debate group in which we travel for competition and meet dozens of other homeschool families. Some have one child, others have many children. Few are as “out there” as you make us out to be. We are normal people trying to follow the Lord’s will. And provide the best educational experience possible for our children. We know our children best. And we don’t need metal detectors in our halls..
When I say “we” – I mean myself and my husband. We are a team. I make many decisions without him related to schooling. Most homeschoolers do not fall into the minority that you are describing here. The “quiver-fulls”. I know some who do, and disagree with their Biblical interpretation. They do not live in the world of Christ’s grace. All Christians should be praying for our brothers and sisters caught in this trap from Satan. However, simply because we choose to homeschool does not mean we are any more susceptible to this erroneous teaching.
Finally – to those who are condemning the homeschool community for grammar and spelling errors. Perhaps some of those errors are related to quick typing in an attempt to post so we can get back to teaching our children. All four of our kids score above the 95th percentile on government standard testing. Either we are doing something really right – or public schools are doing something really wrong. Don’t condemn us. You have no idea what our days look like.
“Yes, there is no “you” in Quivering. But it’s not about “you”. It’s about HIM. Christ. And only Christ. Yes, there are many groups that distort the Word of God. And while you are trying to free women from situations that may become abusive and are distorting Scripture – you are inadvertently subscribing to the world’s view that everything is about “you”. What “you” want, what feels good to “you”. Guess what – it’s not about “you”.”
No one said “everything” was about “you”. Try to stop the pendulum somewhere in the middle. The intrinsic problem with patriarchy is that it has NOTHING to do with Christ. It’s not about HIM at all. There is no “you” (the woman) but there most definitely is another “you” (the man). If it’s all about Christ, shouldn’t HE also have to forego some of his pleasures and desires? If it’s “all about Christ”, and yet the man still gets everything he wants, I suspect that you’ve confused who Christ actually is. Patriarchy is idolatry.
If you think hollowing out a woman’s life until she is nothing but an obedient shell with no will or thoughts of her own is glorifying to God, then you are not worshiping Jesus.
Vyckie,
I am so so very sorry what you went through with your abusive husband. {{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}
I can feel your pain in your words. He did not sound like a Christian or a godly man. I am sorry he tricked you and your children into being someone afraid to live. Abuser have that affect on the people whom they abuse.
I think as parents, we need to really teach the bible to our children, and if you are in a church you need to read the bible for yourselves. Raise your children to be thinkers. Raise them to question why people do things, motives. Raise them to trust and know what is right, themselves. I want my child to do the right thing, even when I am not around, because it is right and pleases God. Not just because I said so. I want my children to follow what God tells them in HIS word not what man has made up to glorify himself.Many bad things happen when people follow people instead of following God.
A truly godly man will,at least most of the time treat you better than he treats himself. He will treat you with respect because you are a part of him. The bible says a man should love his wife, like Christ loves the church. He gave himself up for her(us..the church).
I recently heard about the QF movement. I found this site when GOOGLING to find out about it.
I am glad you were able to get away from your abusive husband with your life, I have tried to help a few women from abusive relationships, married and not, one lost her life, she did not want to leave because the had 3 children together. (They were not in any kind of movement) …He was very domineering. When he would come home from work, if people were there, she had H*** to pay. She was not allowed friends.
I wish there was a way to tell every abused woman out there, that YOU ARE LOVED!! God did not make us to live in fear of life. We all, men and women are important to HIM. I want to cyberhug the hurting and convey to them who they really are.
I am going to work on this some, since my gears are rolling. I need to find out if there is literature espousing bad bible and send a few emails with what the truth really is. They may not listen to me, but I want them to at least think about it, really think about it.
Blessings to You and Your family!
Sincerely,
Angie W.
I just want to point out that “Disciples of Christ,” i.e., the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) is NOT a fundamentalist denomination. It is a very liberal and inclusive, feminist and woman-supportive denomination. Women are ministers at every level, and there is no mention whatsoever in this denominations tenets of women serving their husbands or letting God plan their family or its size.
http://www.disciples.org/AboutTheDisciples/tabid/67/Default.aspx
Agreed. My reverend was a lesbian. Great woman.
At first, I read this out of pure interest, thinking, what led this person to write such a thing? She may have a point. I may not fully agree with it, but she may have a point. But by the time she said, oh, they have goals to be debt free, I thought, wow, well one less problem for America! Those are people that we will not have to borrow money from other countries as a result! And they have a lot of kids! And btw, over 35% of Americans don’t want children, and this is going to be a problem for those of us in our 20s and 30s if this trend continues, because who will be able to take care of us when we’re old?
And no offense Vyckie, I feel really bad about all the things that have happened to you. I’m sure you love your kids so much and would like each and every one of them to exist even though you have gone through so much. But some women think this is the way to go. It’s too bad that you had to deal with such pain.
There are SEVEN BILLION PEOPLE. Really think that’s not enough? There’s been an increase of 4 billion since the 60s. The enviromental impact alone is horrendous. But I’m glad you made this entirely about you and your money.
Thank you for pointing out this insane movment
I hope it is not too inappropriate for me to reply. I am a male, not a xtian and therefore not a lamb or bride or ruby or whatever. I am a child of the sixties however and a new-ager for want of a better “collar”. We had our experiences then, and now as a 65 year old liberal who raised 4 normal children, who are neither in any cult-and yes Virginia-these are cults-nor in any right wing “dominance” thought form.
The sixties happened and the old age just did not like it, yet the world moved on despite the negative reaction to what I now feel was a very spiritual evolution for the human spirit in its search for freedom. That negative reaction has blossomed into what all of us are now living in.
What I am suggesting is that there is more to the universe and what is going on than submission to a patriarchy based on a dead Jew-which I will be one day as well. I can not imagine being brainwashed in such a way. I thank G-d for giving me the faith to raise my children in love and peace and as many of us Jews and others have said for 1500 years-merciful creator,spare us from the insanity of your most fervent believers.
Yeshua was a beautiful spiritual teacher and the soul of his message is to love one’s neighbor as oneself which is very yogic and eastern and communistic. Remember dear readers unless you have been where I have been you are unschooled in interpreting an eastern semitic teacher fairly. His words are so yogic and transcendental. Bottom line-love one’s neighbor defined the “woodstock” consciousness and the sum quota of the Beatles music-;["and in the end , the love you take is equal to the love you make"]. And not synonymous with fundamentalist xtianity as practiced today with its exceptionalism and dominance theories so prevalent This is what your youth will rebel against. The wrong “voice” as we enter the new age, the messianic age.
They will become part of one human consciousness than does not see color, sexual preference, religion, nationality, or gender as “more’ or “less”–just unique and beautiful and another facet of the godhead.
If any reader finds these comments to be sincere as I intend them to be and would like more info please reply to this post.
Whatever your response to my words, to all women who have suffered during the past 10, 000 years of patriarchy-forgive us of our ignorance my sisters, it has brought the world no peace. May your healing journey be blessed and fruitful and bring you into a life of ecstasy and freedom. G-d bless you all.
Jesus approves this message
I appreciate Vyckie and her website. It is not easy to walk away from abuse from an angry husband and an angry, demanding God who cannot be pleased. The quiverfull movement is an attempt to do “everything” a christian can think of to get God’s approval and avert condemnation and wrath. The Hebrews created a monster in Yahweh. It takes courage to go against 80% of your culture and recognize that trying to meet the demands of Yahweh is not healthy no matter what the “groupthink” of your chosen religious “tribe” says. God’s threat of eternal torment and unexpected tragedy is traumatic and very frightening. Three major world religions worship this “god” of Abraham. When “god” tells you to tie your child up and put him over a fire and sacrifice him, you are suffering from psychosis. Creating a god that impregnates himself into a frightened teenager only to have himself killed in order to save a “few” people seems like a religion that should be discarded. Man can be very moral without god. What do we love about a god who destroyed the world in a flood and saved one family. The quiverfull movement is all about trying to be that “righteous” family that god will spare when he destroys the world. The truth is this, mankind is destroying the world. The nuclear energy industry has the capacity to destroy mankind and alter his DNA. What use is a silent god who did not reveal a religion that insists on protecting the earth and mankind. Why didn’t this all powerful being not write in his book…Thou shalt not risk destruction with nuclear weapons and a nuclear energy industry capable of polluting and killing mankind. The christians are protesting abortion clinics and leaving nuclear energy plants and their owners alone. No one is more at risk right now than a fetus and an infant from the pollution from Fuchishima. Where is the outrage? If Yahweh can “speak” to so many christians as they profess why is he not telling them to create a movement to shut down the nuclear industry? Because “god” doesn’t speak to anyone, and a 3000 year old book is useless to base a modern and moral life on…that’s why.
“children (fools) should not be socialized by other children (fools) ~ but instead should learn social skills from adults.”
I don’t like the “fools” language but aside from that, what is the problem that liberals and feminists have with this notion? I consider myself both (sort of–I’m still struggling with the liberal thing, though I’m not a conservative in the usual sense either), but seriously, what does another kid know about being an adult? If they knew enough, they’d be an adult already. It is the job of adults to socialize children. Other children are for friendships, not to teach your kids how to grow up.
You do know there are non-Quiverfull, non-conservative, non-right-winger parents who homeschool their kids for this reason, right? And if I might point out an uncomfortable fact, state control of public schools cuts both ways. While the right-wingers are worried about secular liberals controlling the schools, *I* am worried about abstinence-only sex ed and creationism creeping in–and don’t tell me they wouldn’t, I’ll just laugh at you.
At the end of the day we have the right to maintain our cultures and raise our own kids. It’s very anti-freedom to suggest otherwise. Parents are not baby factories to create more consumers for corporations or more citizens for the state. Corporations and states come and go. One area in which I do sort of agree with conservatives is that the family has got to come first. But if it’s a matriarchal, mother-centered family as opposed to the Quiverfull wet dream, or even something in between the two, I’m totally down with that.
When are we going to get over this bs and stop repeating the past again and again? It’s the same old crap that men have used to keep woman down from one century to the next. I suppose all women have the most wonderfully compassionate men who are most wise and fair, and work hard to make a great life for their slaves, I mean wives, and their dozens of children. These men always put their families first and make sure that they have enough to eat and a wonderful home life. I’m sure they all work several jobs or are super stars that make millions. I feel so sorry for the children in these situations.
“I don’t like the “fools” language but aside from that, what is the problem that liberals and feminists have with this notion?”
Sorry, could you point me to where feminists and liberals have, either as policy or desire, put forth the idea that children should raise children?
“At the end of the day we have the right to maintain our cultures and raise our own kids.”
And what, pray tell, is “your culture”? What is it about you that makes your culture unique in the greater milieu of the United States? Clothes? Folk songs? Dance? Food? As for your children, you don’t own them. You get to raise them, but they don’t belong to you. It’s a fine distinction, but it needs to be made.
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I don’t even know where to start. I suppose, first of all, thank you Vyckie for the time and support you give to women and families who suffer abuse in the name of God. I understand many view this as blog as too general but I would hope that most, like I, are able to understand that there are varying degrees to which you can take your belief and identify the behaviors which you speak of that are damaging. I recognize that you speak of “Quiverfull” not to damn the one and save the rest but because this was your personal experience, we all know spiritual abuse can happen within and via any denomination.
I was raised “without religion,” however my mother did school me in history and multiple fields of theology as a pre-teen – teenager, and with that being said I’d like to identify myself as an anti-theist and stand up for “Angie the anti-theist” here; this one is for you Jeff. Being an anti-theist doesn’t mean you reject God or the idea of God, that is an Athiest. Anti-THEISTs believe organized religion does more damage than good, simple as that. Granted, most anti-thesits are likely to be athiest or agnostic it doesn’t make them Satanists, Mysothesists, Dysotheists etc. I am not ignorant to the fact that your theological teachings probably lead you to believe this is no better than being any of the above listed and justifies you talking down to and acting superior to others but unfortunately that is the effect of these organized religions we reject so, so be it. We don’t need organised religion to instill good morals in ourselves, children, friends, and others nor to make us loving people. If that were true, simply put, this blog would not exist. I understand that in the end the thing that gives you and Helen justification for your actions is the belief that you are doing your duty and that the rest of us will go to Hell for not following the same path and you’ll just laugh at the rest of us as you stroll to the pearly gates, but the fact of the matter is that that is YOUR belief and it is NOT truth to anyone except those who also follow your belief. I ask you this one question; how do you know that YOU and YOU alone are right in your thinking? The idea/knowledge of a greater power, an all knowing God, and stories of similar peoples and events was spread WORLD WIDE before world travel was possible, how do you know YOUR version is the correct one. I think NO one has all the answers/is right. I think the only thing that matters is we treat everyone around us with mutual respect and love and anytime you are suppressing or stifling another you are in the wrong, you DO NOT need scripture to teach that.
I’m currently a home-schooled student and have been one since 1st grade.
Its awful you had such a bad experience with homeschooling, and I can’t and don’t want to imagine how horrible that was. However, as a home-schooled student, I can say its the best thing that ever happened to me. I don’t wear headcoverings, neither of my parents lords over the other, I’m independent in my choices of clothing, music, activities, and friends, and I have a wonderful relationship with my whole family.
We started homeschooling because my older brother had trouble in school, and wasn’t thriving there. My mother offered to allow me to stay in school, but I refused because it was too easy, and homeschooling was fun! Every homeschooler that I know is happy, and well educated (All performing at or above national averages) and our “support” group resembles nothing like what is described in the above article. I’ve met home-schoolers from all across the nation ( Thanks to a wonderful Forensics program) and can honestly say that what’s described in the article is outdated and simply not true. Both my siblings excelled in college, and I’m planning on pursuing a career in teaching K-12 education, as learning is my passion. Like I said before, it truly saddens me that some people have your experience, but those are the exceptions, not the rule. Please don’t judge all people who choose to homeschool on the basis of your own bad experience. It belittles those who make that choice. The faction of Christian Home-schoolers you dealt with were misguided, and I would never pretend to defend them. But I will defend my family and friends choices, and would hope you could give us all a second chance.
I think it’s interesting that you want to teach, but you are home-schooled. Will you teach in private, public or home-schooling setting? Good luck.
Mary…the point of this website is not to bash all home school situations. It is based on a current movement gaining popularity where a man is the undisputed head (even when wrong) and his wice is absolutely submissive to the point of having no identity beyond how many children she can bear. It teaches male children to become their father…and femal children to become their mother. It is based on the idealology thay “self” is unimportant…selfish…and sinful. It is a show of only happy thoughts, even when the happy face is forced. It is following parenting styles where children are “trained” to not think for themselves from birth but to do as they are told. You have taken the whole meaning behind this site personally when it doesn’t even apply to you. It is about a movement where the thought process is they are doing it right and everyone else is wrong. There are exceptions to every rule…but in truth…this site explains the beluefs of the Duggar family and backs it up with fact. More importantly…it is the story of many womens journey to reclaim what God so meticuliusly gave each of them at conception. A unique personality with free will. Had he wanted a planet of puppets…I think being God he would have created everyone alike.
Wow, there’s a lot of HATE on this site, coming from BOTH sides. This is NOT a welcoming and safe site, as advertised. In practice, it’s the exact opposite. Adios, NoLongerQuivering, I’ll take a pass on this site and will go somewhere that people aren’t sharpening their knives in anticipation of responding in the most hateful way they can to someone they disagree with.
Well, the important thing is that you’ve managed to find a way to feel superior to “both sides”. HIFIVE! /snark.
Subjecting children to religious indoctrination is abusive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulX8nZjeCXE
Children should be allowed to determine their beliefs and values when they are adults.
I am confused by this:
“…more fundamentalist denominations (Baptist, “non-denominational,” Church of Christ/Disciples of Christ, etc.)”
I grew up as Disciple of Christ, and it was the most liberal church ever lol. Our reverend was a lesbian even!! So I’m pretty sure that Disciple of Christs are not fundamentalists.